Whenlifegivesyoulemonsthrowthematpeople
67520
1525
248
Nov 19, 2016 4:49 PM
Whenlifegivesyoulemonsthrowthematpeople
67520
1525
248
zorock
Why is it an issue without the electoral college? Peoples votes would be of equal worth... Everyone votes for different reasons..
dennydorko
Except not everyone in a state votes the same way.
Edutittam
So like, where the people are.
opentokix
Looks about the same as "Amount of people" and "money generated for country"
Witters84
Oh hey, it's Ramirez, the cartoonist equivalent of Fox News.
AwesomeName
Are you saying votes should represent the land area, not the people?
kuruflnwe
This isn't quite accurate. Ohio population ~1/2 of New York. Why is it like 1/10 the size here? Confused
JediEwok
Am I blind or did they forget TN?
phellomello
Not to be petty, but Nebraska is abbreviated NE.
jayar1st
In the National Crime Information Center databases, it's NB. Not sure why though.
Beelsebooob
Yeh... and why shouldn't it be like that - why should the 3 people in wyoming get so much more say than the 40 million in california?
Varroth
And? You think countries that don't use an electoral college don't have densely/sparsely populated areas?
Lemonsandwichs
Florida has nine more votes than Pennsylvania, so then why I'd it ten times bigger?
SolidEther
I live TN but I kinda like the popular vote way. If anything the Electoral College needs to be reworked. Why use an old system in our time?
GnashVillain
I live in TN too, can you find it on the map? Or am I just blind
oneofthecalled
I say California and New York secede together and build an underground bullet train system to connect us
Hannya
I feel like people who oppose the popular vote don't understand that states =/= people.
Shumani
God forbid every person's vote have equal value.
copingcabana
I know a lot of republicans in NY, CT, and NJ who don't bother to vote. If the popular vote mattered, I'm sure they would
cupcake13
I get this, though. My democratic vote in Tennessee will never matter.
copingcabana
Yeah, I get it, but there are tons more people in NY, CT, NJ, CA and Dems win the popular vote by only about 2-3 million
Nebroxah
Artist can't even be arsed to get the abbreviation for my state right.
TGWeaver
Well, Ramirez is a hack.
dogfavoriter
Almost as if most people live in the most highly populated states.
Raelic
I really hate the arguement of "without the EC then most of the botes would come from CA and NY" no shit. Thats where the majority lives
Raelic
Votes rather
TechPriest97
How non Americans see the us
Raenon
This is so ridiculously distorted. NY had 7.1m votes cast, PA 5.9m, and yet NY is shown what, 10-15 times as large? Bullshit.
Raenon
In fact, PA had HIGHER turnout than IL, and same electoral count, btw.. and yet IL is shown several times larger than PA. WTF?
Raenon
... and OH too. Also shown at least twice the size of PA with fewer votes cast, fewer electors, and also smaller potential voting pool.
Tiskel
It's based on EC votes, not votes cast. It's also completely irrelevant and wrong, but that's supposed to be the scaling factor.
Raenon
No, the tagline is that it's the election WITHOUT the electoral college, and I even confirmed that on the source site. Bullshit scaling.
sirdan346
how would population density affect voting without the electoral college? a vote is a vote.
stsword
The argument is that with popular vote only the populated states would get campaigned in because the others would be considered worthless.
PotzBlitz
Well but what does a German know right^^ just working with simple logic here. We here in Germany don't make a lot of fuss about elections.
PotzBlitz
Right now only swing states get campaigned. I fail too see how that is better. Although I fail too see the need of campaigning at all.
stsword
Oh I agree, I'm sure there could be a better system for all this.
FlackJacketSnackCracker
Ok, but who cares? When you're voting for a national leader, why does it matter what state you're in?
TotallyNotJaimeLannister
Because the interests of people in Cali are different than those in Ohio, Pennsylvania & Michigan but it has >pop than those 3 combined.
FlackJacketSnackCracker
But if the interests of more people are served by a certain candidate, then that candidate should win.
TotallyNotJaimeLannister
I'm going to use an extreme example to illustrate why the popular vote is a flawed system. 9 states contain about 50% of the pop. If a...
TotallyNotJaimeLannister
2) candidate campaigned on giving those 9 states no fed taxes and huge incentives for companies to move to them, but put huge taxes on...
TotallyNotJaimeLannister
4) the candidate that serves all the people of the US the best? The EC college tries to make sure that a small majority or even a...
TotallyNotJaimeLannister
5) plurality cannot impose its will on a group that is a minority.
Thepointbesidethatis
1) Your argument does more to combat the notion of an electoral college. A candidate could promise 11 states no taxes and free ice cream,
daromander
My absurd example time. A candidate can win with < 30% of the popular vote by just getting the "right" voters. Why's that any better?
TotallyNotJaimeLannister
3) the other 41 states they could probably win the popular vote (assuming voting is proportional to population) but would that really be...
ian3fs
A lot of crying about electoral votes when the majority of people don't even bother voting.
JasonD
Why is the truth being downvoted in this thread? http://www.electproject.org/2016g
Cataleast
What the... 58.3% turnout? That's incredibly low, especially considering how volatile and vicious the campaigning was. Guess ppl got fed up.
JasonD
It is the lowest since 2000, but the majority did in fact vote, even if just barely.
Thorsmightyarse
..but those are two distinct problems...even if there was high voter turnout the system would still be unfair. Deflecting?
honknwave
I know some people don't bother because their vote won't affect their county/state. Eliminating the Electoral College would fix that.
UnsaturatedFat
This. As a Californian, even though I voted, I feel as if my vote doesn't really mean anything.
Hannya
Because between First Past the Post, and the Electoral College, it literally doesn't.
BiteTheHandsThatThieve
This is why I'm so angry. Because not only does my vote count for less, but if my state is reliably one color it will never be accounted for
BiteTheHandsThatThieve
in the run up to the election. California is uaullu ignored after the primaries.
Shakafazoodle
So Miami, NYC, Chicago, and LA should decide how the entire country is run? Didn't the colonies secede from Britain for something like that?
honknwave
Every single vote matters. It doesn't matter what state you cast in, as you saw in this election, there are millions in rural areas voting
BrianWilliamsNews
The way that it works now, it makes votes from less populated areas worth more than others. Someone from Wyoming is worth 3x one from CA
TheRadarTechnicianMatt
That's a very skewed statistic.
DerrickSteen
I to have seen this Adam ruins everything.
Radcliffelookalike
For the European parliament some countries like Cyprus have up to 10 times the representation of France or Germany per capita.
newyorknyc
That is the point.
ishouldcallmyparents
That isn't the popular vote
TraitorousTrump3
Each state is a separate legal entity; their votes are EC. United *states* and all. The EC is a mix of the Senate & House.
AwhatNwhatAwhatMwhatE
So if that's the logic, it seems like each state should have one electoral vote. Best of 50 wins
TraitorousTrump3
The USA is a representative republic of states. The EC votes are state votes, proportional to their population. What's wrong w that?
daromander
Because it's no longer proportional due to cap on house seats. If Wyoming gets one, then CA should get ~67, not 53
Rivalyn
Some people are salty that fly-over country has more pull than they do in this latest, highly divisive presidential election.
FireatWill
Just do what Maine does. Problem solved. People calling for a pop vote are bitter and/or dumb as fuck
Stumpyz
"Hey people complaining about it not being popular vote: Just make it a popular vote with a representative. Idiots."
BiteTheHandsThatThieve
I just want my vote to count as much as everyone else's. What's wrong with that?
JustSayingYouHaventSeenMeAndBatmanInTheSameRoomBefore
Ever heard of the great compromise, ya fuckin waffle? American History 101.
numnumcoookies
That's ridiculous... is that true?
Imaybegotthis
Votes are adjusted after the census so California will get more after 2020. The rising population of the state makes current values false.
Imaybegotthis
Wyoming has the minimum number of votes (3). It has fewer people than would normally get 3 votes if it wasn't for the minimum.
HandelGF
Almost like the government maybe doesn't want to disenfranchise their food source, do you insult your waiters too?
BrianWilliamsNews
Disenfranchise their food source by making every vote count equally? Welcome to a democracy.
heyguysimtom
Not really. It makes Wyoming itself have greater influence. 50 popular elections, THEN the individual states cast votes for federal govt
mckinful
I think what is meant is if CA and WY had equal EC votes in terms of population CA would have 229, not 55. CA has diminished electoral power
dazedNconfuzed
That prevents/reduces "tyranny of the majority". We are the United _States_, and some need their voice amplified lest they be ignored.
milpitAsian
That's why you have the same number of senators as everyone else.
Rasdwatrium
Yeah, better have the tyranny of the minority..
wadatahmydamie
The problem is that one party has manipulated that system to where they've won one single popular vote in 28 years, but three presidencies.
wadatahmydamie
The electoral college is more or less fine, but we NEED to stop suppressing voters. That's what's killing our democracy.
FauxFargoth
I agree, but I think it'd be better if it equalized the voices instead of making the voices of some louder than others.
FancyNewBeesly
Yes, but having 50 mini-countries under one federal country complicates things, esp when each mini-country has its own concerns re: the Fed.
Aquick20dollars
So are you against the proportion of Representatives each state has in the House of Representatives?
FauxFargoth
I'd rather we move to a proportional representation system than the current winner-takes-all, yeah.
Aquick20dollars
The House is a system of representation based on population. California has almost 1/9 of all reps in the house. The Senate is 100 members
FilmNerd
Californian here, it sucks. We also contribute more to the federal government in taxes than we get back in federal funds
Monsjo
Well that sounds totally fair
d0o0o0d
Overweighting the ~half-million votes in Wyoming and slightly underweighting the ~38-million in California is a pretty trivial issue, guys.
Jagadid
Yeah, it's really awesome in California to be worth less of a vote than a slave as state population under the 3/5ths compromise.
d0o0o0d
Is absolutely hilarious to see Californians who think that they don't matter in the EC.
blazebot4200
Not when all the redneck states are weighted over the liberal ones. Then we get trump
d0o0o0d
We got Trump because the Democrats nominated a terrible candidate.
blazebot4200
A terrible candidate who still won the popular vote
TestPattern
Buh buh but it's not fair that california should get more votes just because they have more citizens! The empty land gets a vote too!
TestPattern
But not the empty land in california or texas
Monsjo
You are all US Citizens, every vote should have the same weight
BehemothTheManCat
Technically each voter should have the same amount of "land" vote as well. I't not intelligent to split it up in borders
Tiddlywanker
If we didn't have electoral college all a candidate would have to do to win it all would be talk all of los Angeles into voting for them
Tiddlywanker
The culture and belief system of los Angeles would choose the winner. For everyone. THATS unfair. Why don't people get this ?
Tiddlywanker
That's just one example of the numerous ways not having an electoral college turns out unfair.
Crimx42
Far more accurate, http://images.mentalfloss.com/sites/default/files/styles/article_640x430/public/us-map-distorted-by-population.png
ghojo
Saw Indiana where Idaho usually is, and immediately thought "Indyho"
JackaLackaDingDong
But that's no where near where most states are.
[deleted]
[deleted]
SuperSupply
Thank
CocktailGaming
Is this map based on population or voter turnout? Or is the difference between them negligible?
Crimx42
Population
donkeymoney
I like how they threw Virginia in the mid west.
Crimx42
It's because the mid west is pretty barren. (Population wise)
Whenlifegivesyoulemonsthrowthematpeople
This is better. The other came from a political cartoonist. Exaggerated but on the right track.
Katalliaan
I kind of like this style of map for the purpose of visualizing the electoral college:
drewcrosby
That map looks like a Lite-Brite.
Crimx42
Super bright colors against a bright white background! Painful on the eyes!!! Overall, I like that style too tho
Katalliaan
Yeah, the colors not so much, but the idea behind it was more important.
delpharseven
There is also this one: https://imgur.com/fHQ7gCY
arsenik
Why is it based of the 1990 census?
delpharseven
Because it is an old image?
TheresAnUpvoteForThat
Um.. 1 in 8 americans live in California. So I'm not sure how accurate that map is.
MostSereneDoge
Yes, but it only has 1/10th of the electoral vote instead of 1/8th. It's underrepresented by the EC.
dangerousDoc
Yeah that map isn't quite accurate.
TheresAnUpvoteForThat
CA Pop: 38.8M US Pop: 318.9M
RandomMagus
The map he linked CA is about 1/8 of the US. It's almost a quarter in OP's
TheresAnUpvoteForThat
Ah. You might be right now that I take a second look.
ChloePrice
And yet it feels almost like areas with more people have more people affected by the outcome of the vote! Weird.
Promethianfire
It's crazy rite?
mechanimated
I literally don't understand this fucking argument. It's like when a kid doesn't understand that pouring water into a taller glass /1
mechanimated
doesn't actually make more fucking water. If you take ten people and put them in a big room there aren't more of them than a crowd of 100 /2
Spongybunny
It's supposed to help protect minority opinions from being completely quashed. Not perfect, but it has a purpose.
kristakat
It's also supposed to allow the electors to step in if/when someone who is elected is unfit to do the job.
ScrooblyDoobles
Except they don't do that. So all the EC does is give disproportionate power to rural areas. That's how we got GWB and now Trump.
kristakat
GWB wasn't my choice but I have a hard time arguing hes unfit. The EC votes in Dec. If he keeps up the shenanigans they might not go trump.
ScrooblyDoobles
2. There is 0% chance the EC will work as intended. They're going to vote in Trump. And that will be that.
ScrooblyDoobles
1. We've had more than a year of Trump pulling shenanigans. How many times did we say "oh it's a joke" "this scandal will finish him". No.
bbueller
So? Democracy is about people, not acres of land, having equal representation.
JuarezAleutians
Mmmerica is a constitutional republic. Pure democracy has the risk of sliding into mob rule.
TinyRocktopus
And a union of states is about the states. What would you call something like that? United States has a nice ring to it
TraitorousTrump3
The actual EC votes are per state. That's what is being represented. Not individuals. That's how this all works.
TGWeaver
Ramirez is a big fan of "one acre, one vote".
tehweej
Last I checked, the USA was a republic...
dodo157
Practically it is an oligarchy
Wabbadabba
Teeeeeechnically its a Democratic republic since our vote still gets counted in big elections, but yes
ClifEsq
The US is a federal republic. The electoral college rather specifically eliminates any chance of the US being a democratic republic.
Wabbadabba
by the people represent the people in the legislative and governing processes." 2/2
Wabbadabba
"A constitutional democratic republic is a type of government based on the principles of a constitution in which officials elected by 1/2
heyguysimtom
We arent in a democracy. It's a representative republic
scabab
thats a type of democracy
Wabbadabba
That's what this is representing. The size has been distorted to show population. A land comparison would be a regular fucking map
TraitorousTrump3
I loled.
TimeFoDat
The spin is that this is intended to make that seem like a bad thing; like somehow CA, NY, TX and FL are getting more than their fair share.
TimeFoDat
But that's where the people are, how would they not be deserving of that extra influence?
bbueller
True. May be wrong, but I think the artist is implying that, without the EC, high population states would be over-represented. I take issue.
TraitorousTrump3
It's simple math to show it's true. Biggest 10 states = smallest 40 states. Very unbalanced.
Wabbadabba
The point is that a straight popular vote would mean that states with huge populations, like cali, would dominate elections.
bbueller
I know. What's wrong with that?
Wabbadabba
It would become mathematically impossible for a Republican to become a viable candidate. We would be become a one party system
Wabbadabba
The only state that would ever matter would be Florida, since its a swing state and has a high population.