hirmuli
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13528
750
Jun 8, 2016 11:21 AM
hirmuli
204576
13528
750
pwomp
If a man doesn't want to be a father and doesn't want to support the child, he should also be legally denied any and all parental rights.
PahRinNay
But . . . But . . . This will only work if women have the reciprocal freedom to TERMINATE said pregnancy . . . Right?
meskarune
I disagree. A child is created by 2 people. Don't think a woman will deal with a pregnancy the way you'd like? Don't fuck them.
Ampersand0
I remember telling my brother a few years back, "condoms are cheaper than 21 years of child support". Guess who didnt listen?
LukeVaderDays
You ?
giveintome
Pregnancy/birth takes a biological toll on women. Father's are welcome to take the embryo and grow it themselves. If they can afford it
roseHyacinth
I agree, only when the other side is true as well, abortion should be safe and accessible to all people making family planning decisions.
ThatOtherMacAvoyWoman
This.
HoldMyWater
I think this type of law precludes abortion being easily accessible. So, yes.
spaceonionfarmer
Wait... Shouldn't the man have been equally responsible for contraception too?
MoJoVixen
I agree. But if the decision is made between them and he decide to fuck off at month 6 of the pregnancy he should be on hook.
mountainofpuppies
As a male I completely agree. There is a window and it's large enough for a decision. If he's not informed until too late then his choice.
HoldMyWater
The decision has to be made within the window when abortion is still viable, and that decision is binding. That's how it would work.
Sacassia
This fails completely to take into account the government making it increasingly hard to have have a choice.
hollyboo
He shared in the decision to stick his duck up there so.......
SupremeTacos
Quack?
VoltWrecker
However this would lead to men just having unprotected sex and leaving the woman high and dry.
TheRealEngali
Yes, but they would be having unprotected sex with women who are consenting to do the same.
Gungagin
Yes, because that has never happened before...
awesomesassypants
The difficulty here is that a man can change his mind over the course of 9 months. A woman cannot.
myfantasticteaparty
The rule should tie down the man once he gives teh first decision of commiting --> if he backs out on his word he has to pay support.
awesomesassypants
Hunny I'm pregnant! Sign this consent form.
Gungagin
Last I heard, it takes two people to create a child. If men don't want children they can be responsible as well and use protection.
myfantasticteaparty
A woman takes protection, a guy takes protection ---> *boop* child appears!! Both are equally responsible and with that basis should both
myfantasticteaparty
should have a way to get out(abortion and resigning all right to be the childs father). the real issue lies with the inequallity with the
myfantasticteaparty
plan b. Abortion is a heavier choice then giving up your rights as a father.
xLiamHaHax
Yer imgur seems to think an abortion is quick 5 min thing.
HoldMyWater
18 years is even longer. There's no perfect solution.
Anamesolongnoonecouldhavepossiblychosenit2
Is there birth control for men? Because I'd be all about firing blanks.
pineapplepuppy
http://www.newmalecontraception.org/our-top-picks/ I wish some of these were more supported and funded as male contraceptives.
16745
Basically two sorts. Condoms and vasectomy.
AnneFranklyMyDearIDontGiveADamn
There are new methods in trials. Look up vasalgel. It's pretty interesting stuff.
AccountCreatedToUpdogVotes
You spelled awesome wrong.
iliketowatchaliensinstarlight
You underestimate how much men would take advantage of such a right. It would be the medieval ages for women all over again.
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diarmuidmurray
Why is the man freed from all responsibly? Both are equal participants is unprotected sex, the potential consequences are obvious.
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Higure
But protection can fail. Condoms break, the woman might've missed a day of the pill, etc. If that happens, and the mother becomes (1/?)
Higure
pregnant, then SHE is the ONLY one who decides whether the kid is kept or not. If she doesn't want the kid, but the father does, (2/?)
Higure
tough luck for him. If she wants the kid, and he doesn't, tough luck for him. Basically, if the protection fails, the man has NO SAY, (3/?)
Higure
while the woman has a few more weeks to decide what she wants to happen. She doesn't even have to tell him she's pregnant. The point of(4/?)
Higure
this post is that that is too much power for one part to have over a decicion that concerns both of them as much as a kid does.
Beelsebooob
So all a man has to do is say "I never wanted the child anyway" and they're absolved of all responsibility?
warslinger
no, you're oversimplifying what the procedure would actually be like.
Fahargo
I mean abortion does that same thing so why not.
makemepancakes
Abortions are not simple to obtain or easy to go through.
GIsLife
I think that the only would the post should really be considered is one where abortion is cheap and accessible which is not the case
HoldMyWater
It would have to be done within a narrow time frame when abortion is still viable.
xLiamHaHax
You make getting an abortion sound so easy, what if the women just cant do it?
HoldMyWater
That was not my intention. I apologize. I know abortion is tough, but there's no easy answer here. Either the woman has to decide 1/2
HoldMyWater
whether to raise a child on her own or abort, or the man can be forced into 18 years of payment. 2/2
HoldMyWater
Also, if there's complications which mean that the woman can't have an abortion, I think 100% that would be a special case where 1/2
HoldMyWater
the man can't opt-out. 2/2
RagePhish
The financial support is for the kid. Not the mom. The man helped create that kid. He can help support it
warslinger
child support does not go to the child. It goes to the guardian for them to decide. Mothers can be d-bags with money too
RagePhish
That doesn't change the point at all the the money is for the child
warslinger
but you're ignoring the reality of the situation by stating it's desired intent, and not it very realistic application
RagePhish
And you are brining up a completey separate issue than that in the op. The op makes no mention of what you're talking about
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RagePhish
Since when is smelling like cookies bad?
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RagePhish
That seems better than just butt. Trying being more optimistic in your world view. The stench is half cookie my friend
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Cheomesh
That would open up a lot of shitbags fucking bareback and just washing their hands of it.
callmethelizardqueen
Or maybe it would force a lot of women to think twice before riding those shitbags bareback.
BigTea
You'd think this would lead to less shitbag woman letting shitbag dudes fuck them. Which I'm personally against.
popejubal
It wouldn't lead to less fucking. Nothing in the history of humanity has led to less fucking. At best we have more "not admitting we fucked"
Taxicat
Except for the fact that shitbags like to hide the fact that they're shitbags until it's too late to back out.
HoldMyWater
You do realize it takes two to have unprotected sex... right? The woman can refuse to have sex without a condom. If he "tricks" her then 1/2
HoldMyWater
that's akin to some kind of rape (not sure if right word), and that shouldn't apply to this law. 2/2
BrontTheGoodBoy
There are other methods of birth control than condoms, though. She could take pills or whatever.
Christx30
That's one of the accusations against Julian Assange, fucking a woman without a condom, when he said he was wearing one.
choicebutts2
LinearEquation
Duck and cover!
alliephotoshopsthings
Flawless.
MacRockatansky
Quit stealing my lines.
MyNameIsHorace
Go away! Baitin!
clancysmum
Damn he's so purty. Let's discuss Tom Hardy. Anyone seen Legend? It's fantastic!
jepplax
yup ".....women can abort or fuck off or pay it her self." -op (clearly not well informed about access to abortion globally)
asquiiiiiiisha
Or the potential psychological effects of surrendering a child for adoption (potential, not guaranteed), or having an abortion under duress.
FuoccoBlue
Well...the effects would be much less for adoption than abortion I imagine...
asquiiiiiiisha
Not necessarily. Bonding can occur when a pregnancy is carried to term, making relinquishing the child very difficult.
asquiiiiiiisha
Obviously coerced abortion is traumatic but freely chosen abortion generally is not. Some regret but most do not.
Showmeyourfunnies
Someone is unclear on the definition of autonomous and independent decision.
jepplax
not unclear on the quote in picture, infact paying close attention to it, and saying its bait because op clearly has issues in that they..
jepplax
..ignore the quote says "..independant decision to bring to term" and start going on about how women can have abortions.. different thing.
allpinkeverything
Not sure if I agree with this. Abortions are a traumatizing experience that the man does not have to endure, what about that part?
myfantasticteaparty
usage of a condom) wich is unrealistic.
allpinkeverything
why is that unrealistic?! AND you can still get pregnant with a condom on... but at least in that case you could argue the guy did his part.
myfantasticteaparty
to prove their stance(that the woman, while with the option of abortion,she can't hande anything emotionaly but to keep it;guy proving the
myfantasticteaparty
that is the part where it gets situational and is the more probable one. The post is about a clean case. in practice the couple would have
ImProbNotRight
and paying a ton of money for 21 years isn't traumatizing. not knowing how your going to have a roof over your head or when you can eat???
allpinkeverything
Taking financial ownership for something you're 50% responsible for creating, can be as emotionally or physically damaging..
allpinkeverything
as having your body invaded and unborn child vacuumed out of you!? Get real or maybe to some people, get a job.
TheBestPosterOnImgur
And I'm just sittin' over here waiting patiently for the new Pokemon games to come out.
idislikecomingupwithuniqueusernames
Honestly, I hate pokemon (I worked retail when it became popular *shiver*), but I would far prefer to talk about Pokemon than this :)
TheBestPosterOnImgur
I was in high school when that happened and never had a Game Boy. So it took me until about 2010 to get into it. The games are really solid.
idislikecomingupwithuniqueusernames
2) packs of cards than they were allowed. And they were insane about the merchandise."I can't believe you'd advertise a toy you don't have!"
idislikecomingupwithuniqueusernames
3) "We did have it, we had a ton of them, we simply sold out in an hour." "Well you should have carried more...blahblahblah."
idislikecomingupwithuniqueusernames
4) The video games were good then? Kind of a Final Fantasy type thing, right? Turn based, choose your action?
TheBestPosterOnImgur
If you liked the old FF games, you'll love them. Easy to learn/difficult to master combat, big world maps, tons of sidequests, etc.
idislikecomingupwithuniqueusernames
1) It was really the customers that I hated. Every day they'd come in and try to trick me (poorly) or intimidate me into giving them more
TheBestPosterOnImgur
Nothing makes a person bitter, jaded, and misanthropic quite like working retail.
ptenorio24
I think the subject gets muddy because the father is almost always somewhat responsible. But I'm gonna back off with this 10ft pole here.
HoldMyWater
There's no perfect answer. Either a man can be forced into 18 years of payment or the mother must decide if she wants to raise a child 1/2
HoldMyWater
alone or abort. 2/2
Brucecori2
I don't know that I necessarily agree with this either. If we both fucked up while fucking, we're both fucked, right? Puns aside, this would
Brucecori2
be a shitty situation to be in. Either abort your pregnancy, which I personally would feel guilt and emotional turmoil over, or be forced
Brucecori2
to face the consequences of BOTH peoples' irresponsibility alone? Also, the child support is for the child, NOT for the mother.
ParanoidWithGoodCause
as is the mother, we allow the mother the opportunity to not be a mother if she so chooses however we do not give the father the same choice
jepplax
it can be very very difficult to get that "oppertunity", really it is not "allowed" globally or equally
ParanoidWithGoodCause
that is the problem yes, but as for difficulty it's as easy as not holding someone accountable for a decision they had no say in
popejubal
Mothers can have a surgical procedure to not have a baby (abortion). Fathers can have a surgical procedure as well (vasectomy).
ParanoidWithGoodCause
and women who don't want to be mothers can have a hysterectomy, what about when a man wants to be a father eventually just not right now?
Cheknya
Condoms are very effective.
ParanoidWithGoodCause
sure when they don't break, or have holes poked in them, or have the woman try to implant the sperm afterwards with a turkey baster or...
flamingflamingo
"We" don't allow the mother the opportunity to not be a mother. That's on biology.
callmethelizardqueen
And the doctor at the clinic.
flamingflamingo
The doctor doesn't decide who gets pregnant. Abortions are simple procedures. The fact that the woman holds the cards isn't society's choice
callmethelizardqueen
Biology and abortion both allow the mother the opportunity to not be a mother. It is society's choice- the law gave her that card.
mwahz
But in so many parts of the world, the mother doesn't have that choice
ParanoidWithGoodCause
that's equality, ether both sides have choices or neither side has choices anything else is inequality.
mwahz
What, so you think women shouldn't have the option of abortion just so they are equal to men in not being able to choose?
ParanoidWithGoodCause
equality means equal, you can't have only one side "equal" both or none.
mfizz1e
That's why you poke her in the doo doo hole
iswim
Charming.
emergencyhuman
Or, just, you know, poke a dude. That's way safer.
GuyLeDouche19
You win best comment
hitaf
Yup, gotta throw the ol' bone in the poop scoop to avoid child support.
ThunderWolf2ElectricBoogaloo
Stay classy my friend.
Atuin
Finally a comment I can get behind.
itsabouttogetspicy
Their is more to abortion and babies than just the cost. This is a major decision that comes with a LOT of stigma, shame, (1/?)
itsabouttogetspicy
pressure, and mental anguish. We can't just ignore that and try to simplify this problem to a mere matter of cost. I'm not saying (1/?)
itsabouttogetspicy
I don't agree with OP, because to some degree I do, but this is a lot more complicated than the post is painting it to be.
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GIsLife
That's... that's really not how fascism starts
itsabouttogetspicy
Oh? And yet it's becoming increasingly difficult for women to get abortions because some people "don't like" abortion. Women aren't (1)
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itsabouttogetspicy
allowed birth control through insurance because some people "don't like" the idea of birth control. Men are allowed Viagra to be covered (2)
HoldMyWater
There's no perfect solution. Either the mother has to make a one-time tough decision, or the father can be forced into 18 years of payment.
itsabouttogetspicy
But no matter what she chooses, the mother must live with it forever. Women cant escape it so easily.
HoldMyWater
Huh? The man signing away (or not) his rights also has to live with it forever.
fullmetalneedle
I'm a woman and I totally agree with this
LongCommentChainAppreciator
It doesn't matter what gender you are. If you don't agree with this your an inequalist.
PrivateSectorSexPenguin
I am a man and I'm getting a veal parm sub for lunch
ThottieMinerva
I am a woman and even though you offered me my own and I said no, I will still asked for some of yours.
PrivateSectorSexPenguin
God DAMN it
WorldsSmallestMegaDick
I'm a goose and I totally go HONK HONK
thepuppet
I'm a woman and I disagree with this.
Rhibee
Woman here. TOTALLY agree
flamingflamingo
I'm a woman and I totally disagree with this. My gender has nothing to do with my opinion though.
SoupIsNotAMealVera
I feel like the money issue isn't as important as the fact that you now have a biological child out there whom you want nothing to do with.
lalalesbian
... IF abortion is safe and legal and easily accessible and a viable option.
fullmetalneedle
That is a good point
ThatCanadianViking
As a man I disagree.
Baldylox81
Agree that you disagree that is. Gray area... Women.. Condom... Needle... Trap...
ThatCanadianViking
Something like that ok, I'll give you that. But if the condom breaks or your not using anything your 100% liable. Not your child's fault.
ThatCanadianViking
That you made a poor decision. Your child shouldn't have to suffer because of it.
Baldylox81
Seeing as a man played a roll in the process of getting the women pregnant, as a man I agree. But there is gray area.
ThatCanadianViking
There is. But a broken condom or not using a contraceptive is not a grey area.
Lulabel73
As a women I don't. You can't force someone to have an abortion. This is unrealistic, there's too many variables. The only way to avoid 1/
Lulabel73
2/ this is to sign a contract every time before sex. Accidents happen.
olivejuiceyou2
I agree with this, it would be nice to say that men and women are equals and yada yada yada but this is not realistic at all
Lulabel73
Yep it's the real world and every situation is different. People have feelings and babies aren't material things.
Kichini
Also a woman and couldn't agree less.
Kichini
It should've said more instead of less. My phone autocorrected and I never bothered to reread and fix.
SneakEFoxxe
Explain
MordorGate
You can't just disagree and not elaborate
NoisyPulsar
"As a man I disagree", 2 comments above, gets upvoted. "As a woman, I disagree" here, gets downvoted. Just saying.
somethingintangible
... Go on... *reaches for popcorn*
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PrivateSectorSexPenguin
*than
Ben4983
Yeah being a woman doesn't mean you can speak for all women, or that your view is typical of women.
fullmetalneedle
I can try..
Ben4983
Bwuhahah you'll fail :P
iDrinkDrano
Good thing she was casting a vote rather than making an ultimatum, then
FluffyPuddles
not according to her own follow up coment
iDrinkDrano
I think we read her comment in two different tones, then.
fullmetalneedle
As a woman you can give birth to a child and that is something that a man can never experience, with great power comes great responsibility
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RemainsspacebarUnknown
well as a man i can shoot sperm, which woman cant do!
Falos
Like most superpowers you're probably not supposed to do it all over the place.
fullmetalneedle
Very true
schlabbalappen
I'm all for this, but correct me if I'm wrong: doens' think practically take ALL responsibility from young men? why would any man 1/2
schlabbalappen
care about condoms when they can just say "nah, keep dat baby"? (besides STDs of course). after all, abortion is still a painful thing 2/3
schlabbalappen
to do so pregnant girls get all the responsibility because they made a stupid mistake, and the boys can just choose not to care.
myfantasticteaparty
option of backing out so should the guy. I am more concerned on the factors that imapct the womans decision, seeing how the carrier of the
myfantasticteaparty
baby would take it more personally.
schlabbalappen
that's what I was trying to say, exactly, backing out is much easier if you're not the one getting an abortion..
myfantasticteaparty
this is more of a case where both parties took equal percussions when doing it --> making them on the same ground. If the woman has the
HeyDontBeADick
But child support is for the child, not for the mother. Men and women are both parents, but not both pregnant.
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Counterfit
That's... the entire point of this post.
Luciferisgood
The point is the woman gets to choose if she wants to support the child and the father is removed entirely from that choice.
irlShitposter
Ever met single mothers?
Babybunz
Yes but that doesn't fit into the circlejerk narrative so eff off
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GIsLife
Does anyone happen to have any stats on how frequent money is spent on the child vs the mother
HeyDontBeADick
Yes, some people are dicks/cunts
fruitfreakingloops
that's an issue with the application though, not the principle
UltimateQueefMachine
But if he wants absolutely nothing to do with the child, and she knew this, then she should not get any money from him for help
hardlyfatal
Then he shouldn't have had sex with her. If you fuck, you're accepting the risk of a child. You can't bank on her being pro-choice.
HookersandBlow
Yeah your comment still ignores that fact that the woman holds all choice over the child's future existence
EconMajorHere
. . That's asinine and how some women trap men into marriage/financial support.
theinconvenienttruth
Why is sex consent for parenthood for men but not for women ban abortion then
bb101
the money is not a punishment for the father, it's there to help support the child... the child is innocent in all this :(
eggsalad
Get it from the state. Nothing about needing money requires it comes from private parties.
BewareTheIceSpiders
The child's needs are not even taken into account to calculate the child support amount. Its extorsion.
AccountCreatedToUpdogVotes
If they were, child support would be a flat rate based on residence of the child, similar to military BAH.
BewareTheIceSpiders
What you see everyday is the parent with the custody quitting their job and living off child support.
idislikecomingupwithuniqueusernames
....because they're raising the child. What you think they throw the kid in a closet while they throw wild parties with the support money?
stc02bbb
Wait so you're saying a parent needs to stay at home and not work in order to properly raise a child? Fuck off.
BewareTheIceSpiders
Child's support is supposed to be for the child's needs, not for an adult to live in leisure thanks to another person's work.
idislikecomingupwithuniqueusernames
You ever had a kid? They require constant supervision. There's nothing leisurely about it.
LadyWidebottom
Yes but some men don't have the financial means to support a child. Hence why they don't want one.
ztoundaa
Then wear a condom.
Aylasita
Then they shouldnt put themselves in a position where they could end up a father
bb101
Don't fuck women then
16745
Well, at least not without appropriate precautions.
Coyote8
Don't trick men in to thinking you're in the pill then
LadyWidebottom
Interesting reply, do you put that much blame on the woman for her part, too?
bb101
takes two to tango, certainly
CrashedEgo
So men are supposed to forego the desires of our strongest biological imperitive if for any reason they can't support a child?
bb101
wack it
LadyWidebottom
If women are able to abort for whatever reason they choose, then why do men get criticised for not wanting children for their own reasons?
16745
That imperative is not having sex, it's having a child. Sex is just a necessity for archiving that goal.
CrashedEgo
I actually was thinking about the need to feel loved, and I have not experienced love without a sexual relationship.
flamingflamingo
Okay, but that's kind of too bad? A life is made, and responsibility has to be taken for it.
LetsTalkGameDesign
You are correct. And if the woman has decided to give birth to that life, then she has decided also to take responsibility for it.
HoldMyWater
But that's what people use to argue against abortion...
flamingflamingo
That's only a debate before the child is born.
HoldMyWater
The opt-out (or opt-in) rule we are discussing only applies within the window when abortion is viable.
GiantRobotsRule
There is no debate a child is a person. There is a debate whether it's right to force a pregnant woman to believe an early stage fetus is.
xVancha
No, it's not too bad. We have two wonderful options for children that wouldn't be satisfactorily supported - abortion and adoption.
hiir
Not wonderful. Both have some kind of health risks for the woman (but not the man) as well as emotional and psychological trauma involved
xVancha
As opposed to giving birth to and keeping a child you can't financially support? Abortion is safer and adoption better for the kid.
hiir
A woman can't just decide to abort or give a child for adoption and "be done with it". It is an emotional burden possibly for life
WowWhatAWhore
The child doesn't just burst into the world. It's the women that decides to carry it for 9 months.
flamingflamingo
Yes, and?
hiir
And it's the man just as well as the woman that decides to take the risk of having a child. You can't by default expect a woman to abort
hiir
just because that's what you would want. Any sexual intercourse means agreeing to take the risk of having a child.
minabear
As a feminist, I am completely okay with this. However, if the father wants to be involved with the child's life (visitation etc), 1/2
shocky377
I stopped reading after "As a feminist"
jezzacorbyn
My dad took my mum to court of visitation then refused to pay support, he was sort of a dick
SvarvSven
How about the reverse, when the dad takes care of the child? ^^
EarendilTheBlessed
yeah absolutely but I think the point is if the dad goes idw to be involved when they find out then yeah they should have to pay
Justineer
Well what if the mother makes more money than him?
fufuwewe
it should be equal custody in the first place so there shouldn't be child support.
CrimeBrulee
This is not a tit-for-tat. It's not about fucking fathers. It's about insuring that children have everything they need to thrive.
minabear
It's in response to the post, not my feelings on the matter
rokkerboyy
Assuming to woman gets custody... which is a big issue in itself
JohnnyTitelips
Assuming that the father doesn't get custody, of course.
minabear
Completely
ButterfaceTaintClown
As a man, I disagree. If you impregnate a woman, fucking man up and pay, regardless. Grow the fuck up - it's about the children.
ButterfaceTaintClown
Also - if the woman is "being a bitch" maybe you should have done your fucking homework. Pay up.
MeowfaceWhiskerpaws
If custody is split 1/2 and 1/2 why should the dad have to pay child support too? I think child support should be given when 1/2
MeowfaceWhiskerpaws
2/2The male decides he wants to be nothing more than a sperm donor.
Roserapaine
I shared this opinion (along with the opinion that if dad has full custody and mom has visitation rights, mom should pay child support) and-
Roserapaine
got put down by literally every woman in ear shot. (I am also a woman. they put me down for not knowing anything because I'm childless) (2/2
PleaseSendMeNews
Oh your a feminist well I'm a vegan
minabear
I think in this case it was applicable because most people assume that "all" feminists want the men to pay everything no matter what
PleaseSendMeNews
But I'm vegan
ProstituteRobotFromTheFuture
What happens if a couple decide to have a kid and the dad changes his mind midway through or after birth? Is he off the hook?
Nobody7713
The final decision would need to be made before the final point at which the pregnancy can be terminated safely.
LadybirdBrown
So you've got to have an abortion if he changes his mind or do it alone? Fuck that
Catpack
Safely? There is always a risk with abortion. The woman can end up not being able to have another child. 1/2
Catpack
Why won't men who doesn't wanna care for their offspring have a vasectomy instead? They are reversible, "usually" 2/2
Xaizer
100% agree, if the man opts out then he gets no parental rights also no obligations. It's not longer his kid. This needs to be decided
Xaizer
During pregnancy. Signing the birth certificate locks you in. Birth certificate would protect against not telling the man til birth.
Retrofitkid
Or no child support and the couple can share the baby.
totallycrazy99
But going to school will mean that one parent will have the child more. Thus payment.
OutSyder
if the two are squabbling over the ebb and flow of time, then neither should even be parents. its not about numbers but the effort given.
emergencyhuman
Yeah, if parents can't agree, unborn that baby.
unimaniac
It's actually doable to get a 50/50 split, we do it pretty successfully
flapperfemmefatale
i can't imagine it'd be good for a kid to attend a different school every week. no consistency of education.
minabear
Sure! If the time is spent 50/50
CrimsonNirnr00t
Even then, child support still usually gets calculated. Unless both parents make exactly the same income.
dmpMan
In sweden this is really common, kods spend 1 week at their moms and the mext at their dads, then repeat. Works really good, worked well 1/2
dmpMan
2/2 for me and my brother!
Blodgarmpls
Do the parents always live close to each other? My mom's dad moved 1000 mi (1600km) away, so she couldn't have gone to 2 different schools
dmpMan
Yes my mom and dad always lives close, within like 1-2km. 1600km sounds rough :(
Wombatish
There's still gray there. A child is a potential outcome of even safe heterosexual sex. He doesn't get to be gung-ho for the action *c*
Wombatish
*c* and just drop the consequences. The only reason she gets ultimate veto power is because she will have to carry it. Being able to *c*
Wombatish
*c* go before a judge and have your rights and responsibilities stripped is a good middle ground. It would also be a vastly different *c*
Wombatish
*c* story if we didn't have such a high rate of child poverty. Again. it's a foreseeable consequence and to condemn a child to poverty *c*
Wombatish
*c* over it is also wrong. In a perfect philosophical world this view would of course be fine (and we'd have artificial wombs so the *c*
eddiesharpe
This takes all responsibility away from a man that puts a woman in the position to make that decision. He just gets to walk away?
aarknoud
Making the man responsible for a 2 person decision is not fair either. Or if someone lies now the man is responsible as well.
eddiesharpe
The man isn't responsible for the decision, he is responsible for a product that is half his.
aarknoud
It comes down to the man can not be part of the decision at all. If a woman decides to keep a child a man has no say in the matter at all.
aarknoud
I agree it does take away all the responsibility from the man. But it was a choice by both people to have unprotected sex. 1/2
bhampir
Not all sex that results in pregnancy was unprotected.
littledinosaurs
exactly, no birth control method is 100%
MusculusSternocleidomastoideus
But it should be decided before the baby is born. You can't decide to get out when you realise it's too hard afterwards.
haveyouforgotten
might be better for child if parent leaves when it's 'too hard'. not every adult is a good parent, why compel bad parents to stay?
somellama
that doesn't take into account reality.. some people are not good parents, we shouldn't force bad parents to raise children.
CaptRandom1290
No takesies backsies
ChimeraOfEbony
Theoretically the only fair thing would be that it was decided before reaching the point when the pregnancy can no longer be terminated.
Knilore
The problem is everyone's opinions on when that is. Technically can be done until actually out. It's too vague to set a hard limit on when.
ChimeraOfEbony
Many countries have laws on that, e.g. a pregnancy cannot be terminated in Denmark after 12 weeks of pregnancy, unless her life's at risk.
ParanoidWithGoodCause
to prevent the woman from just not telling the father until too late make "not involved" the default and make fatherhood require consent.
Yathatwasme
The only fair thing would be to discuss it before risking a pregnancy. But that's just ridiculous, right?
Lunakat504
You mean normal sex right? Cuz that happens by accident a lot. Broken condoms and what not.
Yathatwasme
yea, that's how pregnancy works, normal sex. I know it happens a lot. Not talking about it before means you're asking to be in a tough spot.
danzafan37
There's also the super sticky issue of when he decides to peace out; I just realized I have ~1K words to say on this so Imma not do that
Bot17629A98001
I'm not going to**
Bot17629A98001
Lol
ZugZugAlright
A picture is worth a thousand words...
stonerlibtard
I think it's simple. He must decide to peace out before the pregnancy can no longer be terminated.
LadybirdBrown
Peace out before a pregnancy, or not at all IMO. I would not have an abortion cos he changed his mind and think dual responsible is fair
GrizzlyWicks
but thats your choice not his if you choose to have the baby thats on you
stonerlibtard
If you get pregnant it is both of your fault. People blame the game most of the time but you both share equal responsibility. If he (1)
stonerlibtard
tells you he doesn't want a baby you can't force him to have one. You can still have it but you can't force him to take care of it. I (2)
danzafan37
Except the problem is that then the girl may not tell him until that point, thus entrapping him; like I said, super long discussion
stonerlibtard
You'd have to get some kind of signature to opt out. If she never tells you and gets you to sign one way or another that's opting out
TonyCunningham
1/2? Visitation isn't three to four days a week, its a few hours. So how did you come up with half?
chase7436
probably meant visitation and/or joint custody
HappyHooker
Visitation and support are separate, % time share plays a role but it is not the only factor. Income disparity plays a larger role.
HappyHooker
The problem is it is an outdated system with an outdated way of thinking - if you had married then the child would benefit from both incomes
HappyHooker
...so we have to "equalize" the amount of monies between the homes. Basically.
laalot
Comment 1 of 2... not a half. lol.
Ybot
Tbh, I don't understand where you are coming from. If they are helping then why are they paying isn't involvement the point? No disrespect
flapperfemmefatale
involvement isn't everything. my mom went into crazy debt because she wouldn't take my dad to court for support. he was still involved (2)
flapperfemmefatale
(2) but seeing me once a week doesn't matter that much when the parent who actually feeds you is struggling.
NoodleyLove
Think of it like someone sharing the use of your car, or garden, etc., but not giving you any money for gas or upkeep.
Ybot
That makes sense I assumed like the guy would pay for things too just not to the mother.
Zombraina
If it's only visitation and they're not living together, the parent with custody has to consider housing expenses, day to day food, etc.
SilasWing
1/2 That makes it sound like the child is solely the mothers though. Is a child something to be used like a car? If the father is there
SilasWing
2/2 then the father is also a parent. That extra money goes toward the child, not to someone else.
NoodleyLove
--then yeah, they're not really being a parent. That's babysitting. You want to raise a kid then money becomes part of that for day to day.
NoodleyLove
If a father wants the 'fun bits' (ie being the fun weekend dad who does all the cool stuff) but isn't putting in for education or clothes--
Blodgarmpls
(1/3) As a male feminist, I'm against this. Both parents should be involved with the child's upbringing. When I have sex, I know there's a
minabear
I didn't make my comment because I think that's how the world SHOULD work. In a perfect world, you're right... But reality isn't always that
Blodgarmpls
"If he wants nothing to do with the child..." I believe that if I dont want anything to do with my child, I shouldn't have had sex
minabear
Lots of men don't agree with you
Blodgarmpls
That is sad, because I feel I'm a pretty smart, logical, and rational guy. But I'm used to having different opinions
dbrsong
For Fucks sake we have a brain in the room !!! Thank you thank you thank you. Your comment gives me hope. I can't believe people don't 1/2
dbrsong
Take responsibility for their actions.
Blodgarmpls
Glad I can give you hope :)
TheCamBurglar
So if you're a man who would be financially devastated by an un-expected pregnancy, you should be abstinent? Women can just abort though.
Blodgarmpls
Depends. If the guy is just going around fucking anything, then he's a damn moron. If he's with a long term gf (as it should be) then they(1
Blodgarmpls
(2) talk it out and come to a decision together. If they still disagree, then we need to find a way to resolve it impartially
TheCamBurglar
With no legal framework in place, men in that position will always be at the mercy of their partner
frankthetank88
Can you elaborate on what being a male feminist entails? "As a male feminist" set me up to blindly dislike whatever came next.
Blodgarmpls
Feminism is about equality for all. Misandrists are the femnazis you hear about who always belittle men. Feminism was created to increase(1)
Blodgarmpls
(2) women's equality. Pretty much accomplished now, I'd say. So I'm basically just a male who believes everyone should be treated fairly
DStars34
Wouldn't feminist be a misnomer then? Wouldn't you be like an equalist?
severice
"Increase women's equality", kinda sums up why I don't subscribe to feminism.
Blodgarmpls
(2/3) possibility of creating a baby. Even if I wear a condom and she's on the pill, it can still happen. If it does, I will be involved in
Blodgarmpls
(3/3) raising my child. I view sex as a sort of contract that binds both me and my gf to raise that child if we get pregnant.
ArchWizardofCanada
That's called being pro-life.
makemepancakes
Bless you for realizing that sex should be a risk-aware activity. Maybe one day it will be no consequences, but right now it is not.
bobziIIa
That's just dumb. You both already agreed to not have a child if you both used protection. Aborting or plan B is the same thing, just after.
Blodgarmpls
I'm against abortion. But I won't force that onto others. In that respect, i'm libertarian, where you can do whatever the fuck you want
FluffyPuddles
That's called being responsible for your actions! Well done.
laalot
This post isn't about that. This is about an accidental pregnancy in that a woman decides to keep the baby against the father's wishes.
BlastFX
That would be a valid point if we didn't have abortions. In the western world, having a child is always a choice.
Blodgarmpls
I think it's fairly obvious I'm against having an abortion. But I'm also "do whatever the fuck you want" when it comes to others' abortions
chase7436
Not in some states.
NobodyLurksLikeGaston
Or, y'know, get an abortion before there's even a child to speak of?
Blodgarmpls
I'm 24. Don't want a child right now but am able to take care of one should that happen.
chase7436
So let's make abortions safe and easy to obtain for everyone.
FluffyPuddles
Or, y'know, each party use their own contraception. Take control of your body and don't leave it to her to decide if you're a dad.
peppermintpixie
I hope your gf's are aware of this binding contract to raise an accidental offspring when they sleep with you!
Blodgarmpls
One gf, who I will marry. We talked about this and were happy to find out we agree wholeheartedly
dbrsong
Here he is "no brains 'tall." If she doesn't know that then we have bigger issues at hand.
DStars34
I agree with you; however, shouldn't a man have just as much of a right to decide if the pregnancy should or should not be terminated?
XaiaX
He should have as much of right to decide that as he has ability to get pregnant.
Blodgarmpls
This is why we should date for a while before sex. Then you can talk about all this. One night stands don't allow for that
INeverThoughtIdMakeThisAccount
In a world where the fetus wasn't in the woman's body, maybe. But to decide that the woman has to (or is not allowed to) have a procedure...
INeverThoughtIdMakeThisAccount
To terminate the fetus is absolute madness when you consider what is or can be involved.
Coonstuff
Not terminating the fetus is where the madness starts. Termination solves problems.
chase7436
So if a woman gives a man syphilis, she should be able to decide whether or not he treats the disease?
LadybirdBrown
Did he have to sex without a condom?
chase7436
Condoms aren't 100% for sperm, and much lower from STDs, where the bacteria and viruses are way smaller than sperm
beefymeatloaf
confusedguy.jpeg
chase7436
No, he said a man should be able to decide what a woman does medically with her body because he was involved in the process. Same principle
MicheleTidwell
Absolutely not your talking about forced abortions and that is utterly insane.
DStars34
I'm not talking about "forced abortions" I'm just bringing up the point that a man should have a say in the life or death of a child (1/2)
DStars34
or potential child. If a man is expected to pay for a child he doesn't necessarily want for the rest of his life, shouldn't a woman be (2/3)
TheOlsenTwins
Well maybe that might be the consequences of her actions just like it's a man's consequence if an accident happened as she wanted to keep it
noxdracoria
until men have the ability to brood pouch babies like seahorses then they can't have the same level of input toward keeping a pregnancy due
HonestCommentFarmer
Part of what the OP is saying is that the man should have input and if they want nothing to do with it then they shouldn't be legally forced
noxdracoria
to the risk that the woman sustains throughout the pregnancy. Its wicked uncool to force a woman to keep a pregnancy against her will.
noxdracoria
Though I agree that is is also wicked unfair/sad to a guy that wants to be a good dad but the woman is all '100% no go' on that idea.
kickkickingkicker
Or you could be my ex, lie about getting an abortion give her mom custody, tell me when he's 9 months old & then ask for money.
kickkickingkicker
But I have a lawyer and will be taking custody. I love my son and he deserves better than crazy people.
Lyrabelle
Or! You could be like my SO's ex: Say you want to refresh the marriage by moving back to the home state, agree that husband should fly 1/?
Lyrabelle
down first and secure a job and house for the large family, then break up with him two days after he lands and say you'd rather be with 2/?
Lyrabelle
your coworker, and simultaneously push him away with, "you'll have another family," and "you need to be a bigger part of their lives," 3/?
Lyrabelle
but never facilitate any kind of bond. Two of kids don't even remember him and he has been spending 80-100 hours a week at work 4/?
minabear
2/2 child support should also be provided. If he wants nothing to do with the child, then no payment. Easy.
fairybug
That is also fair.
SilasWing
You mean... He should be a parent? Like help raise the child and provide for that child? Like a parent?
QueenCousland
I completely agree. If he wants to be a father, he has to be a father. If he doesn't want to be a father, he doesn't have to be a father.
MettalViking
As the unpopular opinion, what the fuck is wrong with 50/50 custody? Why get court involved when fair negotiations can be made?
SkeletonTomJones
This is the most reasonable thing I've heard all day
Dingus2
How about - if he wants the kid - he should also be in the race for primary custody.
theinconvenienttruth
Every logical person would agree with your statement that's why it's so unpopular with feminists
ibetyourenakedunderthoseclothes
As a bastard, my mom never asked my bio dad for money since he ran out of our lives once he found out she was pregnant. She said she doesn't
ibetyourenakedunderthoseclothes
Want to owe him anything/give him credit for helping us out. I'm glad she made that decision.
lesteros
but the reality is that child support is designed to punish deadbeat dads and abortion is not an option most of the time
minabear
Agreed
FourEasyPayments
What if he raped her?
HoldMyWater
That's how these proposals work, but it's hard to show all the details in an imgur post. +1
PhysicsFreak
Child support for visitation? That seems unreasonable.
EmCeeMiNacion
I know what your point is, but it still sounded so materialistic. As if the child was just a piece of property.
minabear
That's how the post was talking about children so I responded on the same wavelength
danceyoucandanceeverybodylookatyourpants
It should be joint custody, not mere visitation.
minabear
Not every parent wants joint custody
danceyoucandanceeverybodylookatyourpants
So a parent shouldn't have to pay hundreds of dollars each month to see their child for a few hours each week.
YoWhatUpGlasgow
This is spot on, sounds like you're one of those real feminists and not the shrieking harpies that represent feminism on youtube and tumblr
L0gos
That's how i do it with all my kids
FluffyPuddles
"all my kids" Please stop. Get neutered. Think of the children.
UltimateBooty
What if you don't want the kid but you don't want to make them resent you? In my opinion, child support should be provided by the government
FluffyPuddles
By that reasoning, guys who won't take responsibility for conceptions they took part in, should submit to government provided sterilization.
MicheleTidwell
We dont needmore strain on the budget. Congress didn't make the baby, the responsible parties are the ones that should be held responsible.
MeowfaceWhiskerpaws
But it was his decision to not use protection too. He shouldn't be able to just get a freebie and walk away. Especially if
MeowfaceWhiskerpaws
Abortion is illegal. The woman doesn't get a choice there.
AllottaFagina
I still think that's not fair since then you're basically putting pressure on the woman to have an abortion then. It's not..
AllottaFagina
our fault men can't carry children to term. It would be only fair if the man wanted a kid, he would be allowed to carry it otherwise accept
minabear
I agree with you, and I get that. It's just a tricky situation for both parties
AllottaFagina
the woman's decision. Also, childcare still mostly falls on women. So it's not a clear division of labor anyway.
frosty147
Child support shouldn't ever be more than the man can afford, though. Kids shouldn't be used to collect ransom.
OcarinaOfThymeAndTheSevenSages
I don't know how it's done elsewhere, but in the UK it's calculated based off a percentage of the father's wages. Sauce: divorced parents
ThisFrickenGuy
My sister's ex wants to have rights but refuses to work specifically so that he can't afford support. Your stance is a slippery slope.
bufferkiller
As it should be, but in America a man can be raped by a woman and then forced to pay her child support if she conceives.
GourmetChemist
People act like its easy to get pregnant! Lol. It's really got to be timed just right and then a host of ot g er things can go wrong...
bufferkiller
Who said anything about every fuck leading to a baby?
Zuke88
I've read of more than one underage boy who had this happen to him, and I'm not talking about a a 17 year old here....
bufferkiller
Me too. It's sickening.
SeanBeanJovi
And if a woman is raped by a man and chooses to have the baby, he can legally sue for custody/visitation and she can't fight it.
Dingus2
Horse shit. She can fight it and win.
bufferkiller
This isn't a competition. Talking about something horrible one group of humans goes through does not take away from any other group.
[deleted]
[deleted]
fishjuice
You can Google. Hundreds of cases. I personally know of one rapist who gets two court ordered visits a year from his child in prison.
accipiter
Being sued doesn't mean the lawsuit is successful, though. The fact she must deal with the lawsuit at all is disgusting.
EricEss
She can fight it, she just might not win.
16745
So the child gets to suffer, because it's parents are responsible adults. Something's not right here fellas.
TheRealBruceStanley
I applaud you for trying to explain the concept of personal responsibility to this crowd, it probably was not of their childhoods
AliElkie
I think a child would be better off without a father who doesn't want to be involved and is being forced to contribute financially
BreadyStinellis
100%.
iDrinkDrano
Suffer how?
minabear
It is fair to provide the father an exit option, don't you think? Pregnancies DO happen even with responsible contraceptive choices
16745
Yep, that's an accident. Accidents happen all the time. But if I crash into your car, I have to compensate you for the damage. 1
Vectorman2
So a woman accidentally getting pregnant is the man's fault? Last I checked it takes two to tango.
16745
2 even if I didn't want to crash into your car in the first place. Or even if I can't afford it.
ThisNameDoesntMatter
And he should sign over his parental rights.
HoldMyWater
Yup. That's how these proposals work.
themeanbeans
Agreed. And if he comes back later, wanting some type of rights, visitations, etc... he should pay for the time he missed.
SimpleManComplexMind
A man should be charged back pay? Ridiculous! So your grudges can be solved by monetary compensation?
projectiledisfunction
Can't they all be solved like that now anyway?
rubyrubay
I don't think back pay should be required, but he'd need to begin support when visitation/rights resume.
haveyouforgotten
don't think it's fair to be a 'fair-weather parent', you're either committed or you're not. can't opt out of toddler and come back for kid.
kamisan
were pushing it a bit here. That would take the child's rights to see the father away
flapperfemmefatale
i disagree. the parent with custody can arrange visitation. but if you sign away your rights, you don't get them back without paying
blanketandpillowfortsftw
Indeed, I would say take this case by case. Sometimes people don't even know about the child, and why punish them if they never knew and 1/2
haveyouforgotten
so does the initial signing-over of rights. without 'pay for time missed', dad can sign off for the 'tough yrs' and come back when jr is 12.
fullmetalneedle
That's how we do it in holland
Askerith
Tulip growing, hagalslag eating windmill building country(I know it's Holland isn't the country)
AcidOPhilus
How does that work out for you? Actually interested, not being sassy.
fullmetalneedle
I don't have kids
AcidOPhilus
HA. And you guys as a plural? Are people happy with that arrangement?
Vectorman2
You windmill loving jabronis are alright!
EyeHateYouAll
Best comment ever
fullmetalneedle
It's a good system. You can choose to not accept the child, but that means you also loose every right as a parent.
JesseJames18241
There's a form of that here. But the other parent needs to sign off as well. Otherwise no go.
[deleted]
[deleted]
Vandaliam
lose* Sorry, I know it's not your native tongue.
Occasionalfunnycomment
I've also heard that's how they do it in the Netherlands as well.
knausenstein
What about the Dutch?
Ihavenothingtocontributeandamgoingtobecynical
I think Amsterdam too.
selftaughtgenius
Never heard of 'em.
Conash
U mean Northern part of Benelux?