onushka
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Jonathan McIntosh.
https://www.instagram.com/popdetective/
Found him a few days ago and love his stuff. He has a lot of other very interesting shorts about Masculinity, Gender roles in cinema or "Why Dirty Dancing is still a revolutionary movie" :)
Tomigami
Boy, the "representation doesn't matter" crowd sure does seem to get upset when they're not explicitly represented in the best possible light in every medium
Quessir
...surely European studios weren't saying no for that reason.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying racism doesn't exist here. It exists everywhere. But European studios feeling the need to say no because there's no identifiable white saviour character? I find that hard to believe. Unable to provide as big a budget as such a story would need is something I'd readily believe was their issue.
A film about the Haitian revolution would be awesome. Keep at it, Mr. Glover.
physicsdoc
Jokes on you Hollywood! As a white man with anxiety, I'm always uncomfortable! Your sympathetic white character means nothing to me!
FiveHeadedSnakeGod
Pop Culture Detective has a great channel and I wish he did more long-form videos.
FatalError1337
Trying to remember if there were any white hero or sympathetic characters in the Luke Cage tv series.
PiccChicc
So it's been forever and I can't quite remember, but Roots is a movie that did not have a sympathetic white character, right?
TI99Kitty
If you're talking about the 1976 miniseries, I'm pretty sure there were a couple. If you're talking about the remake from several years ago, I have no idea.
Awmph
Hollywood cares about people's f€€ling$
iusedtodream
In my junior year at Portland State, I took a class called Deconstructing White Supremacy. It wasn't about external systems - it was internalized, subconscious racism. It was personal. I have rarely been more uncomfortable. I'm a decent person, never used a slur on purpose, but I'm also white and American. There was a lot to unpack, and still more work to do, because the systems are all still in place. Be uncomfortable. You'll survive.
nybrasse
Sinners - Hailee Steinfeld
aeroldoth
And this applies far more with heterosexuality. EVERYTHING has to have hets in it, everywhere, anywhere, all the time. As a white man I 100% agree WAY too much of everything has whites in it, and whites as the ubiquitous hero. Wish people also saw this of sexual minorities as well.
QueenOfTheFey
YES.
So, straight white men need a 1/4 female/male ratio or they feel like a movie is overly female. The same applies for race, they need a 1/4 poc/white ration or it's a poc movie. And BOTH need at least one STRONG positive white male character or they're upset. (and white woman in a poc movie doesn't count nor does a poc man in a woman movie)
But the second theres a queer character, even as a side character, it's a queer movie to them.
aap71
The real story of brilliant minds being suppressed by nasal and other agencies is waspy white men in charge keeping down jews from Europe and Indian guys. Colleges were slow to accept them here, and classified agencies suspected they were not loyal.
BlackCatSerenade99900
Ron DeSantis needs to see this.
GuyPilot
To his Kevin Costner point;
Maybe that's a good thing?? Maybe if you have a highly principled white character, which causes *more* white people to see the movie than they normally would, and for them to identify with that character's righteousness [against racism], is of net benefit ...? We know American movie audiences don't exactly have much tolerance for sophistication, so why push it?
GuyPilot
It's a bit difficult to unpack the whole issue of a racial bias within hollywood, when the Hollywood movie industry already pushes a lot of mediocre drama, usually devoid of any kind of philosophical nuance, with endless tropes about men, women, canadians, australians, europe, Asians, you name it etc etc. film financing is just making the problem worse
ItHappenedInThe20thCentury
I knew the scene with Kevin Costner breaking the sign down was at least some creative liberty, but I had no idea the entire character was made up.
I remember re-watching The Wiz as a grown-up and realizing how impactful it is that it has no white characters at all. Sure, it's not *about* racism, but still.
OGBriGuy
Good video, but I have a nitpick with Danny Glover.
I was living in Port-au-Prince in 2004 (Haiti's bicentennial). As part of the festivities, Glover performed in a stage production about the Haitian revolution, and sang the praises of then-president Jean-Bertrand Aristide, who was not quiet about paying armed gangs to brutally attack the student protests against his presidency (while also sending the HNP to do the same). Sorry, I don't fk with people who fk with murderous dictators.
victor810
Thank you.
unluckyandbored
Art SHOULD make you feel uncomfortable. Learning about history SHOULD make you feel uncomfortable. It means you're confronting something you don't want to, and that hopefully you'll learn from.
youreathing
1 comment/opinion: IMO, Hailee Steinfeld's character in Sinners was *sort of* a sympathetic white character, until what happened to her.
QueenOfTheFey
But she's not a hero.
She's a secondary antagonist, and arguably, her whiteness is the undoing of the entire group.
theyallwenttoMexico
Jonathan McIntosh
DodyShiratori
I married a black lady and learned so much more about the history (and current ongoings) of racism AFTER I started dating her. The more I learn, the more I'm infuriated by the failure of my education to teach me any of it properly.
I also am grateful every day that this wonderful woman was able to tell that my heart is/was in the right place, I was just severely uninformed (and still learning)
Zin7
she married you to keep the whites in check
Makerofthingsmasherofstuff
Completely agree. In a time when it's suddenly ok to be openly racist, we need to fight against this and demand that people treat each other as equals. Only through education and a real reflection in the media does this become possible
Margrave9000
It's not education if the party on the receiving end of it doesn't hate it.
Fouthtimeburntout
Racists aren't always "good people who haven't 'gotten it' yet." Many of them know, and consciously choose to be that way.
HarryDresdenIsMySpiritAnimal
I agree completely, which is why I hate when racist fucks are called "ignorant". They aren't ignorant. They are very well informed and choose to be assholes
bippityboppitybuttsex
Is there a sympathetic white character in Malcolm X (I only mention cuz he shows clips from it).
bf3c
Malcolm has a white girlfriend (historically accurate) for the first third or so of the film, portrayed rather sympathetically.
ThanosDei
White college girl that asks how she can help and Malcolm says “nah son. Go find yourself a college football star about to make millions in the NFL to con into a shitty prenup.”
bippityboppitybuttsex
IIRC, the actual response in the movie was, 'nothing.'... in real life, he realized that was a mistake and allies are necessary to help with the heavy lifting.
"We need allies who are going to help us achieve a victory, not allies who are going to tell us to be nonviolent. If a white man wants to be your ally, what does he think of John Brown? You know what John Brown did? He went to war. He was a white man who went to war against white people to help free slaves." — Speech in New York, 1964
Margrave9000
And that's privilege. The White Savior Complex. Only BIPOC people can truly liberate BIPOC people. Obama did more than Lincoln - as demonstrated by the White reaction to the two.
bippityboppitybuttsex
So, I love the idea of BIPOC of pulling themselves out from tyranny... but it the people in privilege need to not continuing to oppress, as well.
To argue that there should be nothing from the side of power is odd... learning and correcting mistakes is intrinsic to progress... e.g. getting people to stop voting for oppressors, even if they are part of the oppressor class is progress, even if they aren't standing next to you being hit with the same stones.
ThanosDei
Yeah but my answer was more flowery.
youreathing
I honestly don't remember any except for that college girl who showed up for 5 seconds.
normalizebeingalone
What drives me crazy is when people blanket statement say "im not racist" period full-stop as if they beat racism. Bull shit. Racism is a constant, people are always going to be racist every single one of us, because of the media we consume we are fed biases through seemingly benign media. To me the statement tries to absolve one of any guilt, but really we should continually fighting that fight, continuously checking oneself, otherwise it sneaks in when hubris convinces us we "beat racism".
Zin7
i think thats because you are crazy. Also, the audacity to state it as a fact that every single "one of us" is racist. Are you a christian by any chance?
normalizebeingalone
Nope not at all. And you calling people crazy cause you dont agree, are you a repiblican by any chance? Fuck off
Zin7
not because i don't agree, because you made a false statement about people including me, and i surely must know. Or is it only you, that knows the truth? Also, no, very much liberal. I dont like pretentious liars
normalizebeingalone
You have a very aggressive form of discussion jesus. Insecure, lack of respect for boundaries and inability to perceive a world outside of your own, are you sure youre a liberal, or youre super old or incredibly young? Youd fit in better in literally any other demographic. Now seriously fuck off.
QueenOfTheFey
Yeah, the kyriarchy is in EVERYTHING so we all have to continuously deprogram and fight against it. Everyone, not just "allies" but also marginalized ppl due internalized bigotry.
We have to fight, and learn, continuously, so that society can grow
CobraCommander1981
Andy Serkis and Martin Freeman are the only white dudes in Black Panther. They're the Tolkien white guys.
thebigbaka
highstream
I know he's there as the sympathetic white guy, but to be honest I had completely forgotten he was in that film.
FacelessAce
To be fair, he has the same role in that movie as he does in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Just stand there and say "huh?" ever five minutes so that we can explain things to the audience.
Syko73
Important point that stood out to me is, there is a big difference saying "I'm not racist" and actually being antiracist
TheMountainIsBreathing
Imjurbro
Not being racist is all it takes to end racism. All I ask from people around me is not to be racist. Nobody is tasked with any particulars role based on my race. That’s racist also. I just want to be me, regardless of race, and for everyone else to have that freedom.
Syko73
I respectfully disagree. There are those who claim not to be racist themselves while being tolerant of racism. Meaning they are okay reaping the "benefits" of enslavement and racism as long as they themselves are not the perpetrators of the enslavement or the overtly racist acts.
Imjurbro
I clearly said I was intolerant of racism. And not to get too macro economic, but if you’re using any of a thousand products you’re benefiting from millions upon millions of modern slaves.
Margrave9000
»What’s the problem with being “not racist”? It is a claim that signifies neutrality: “I am not a racist, but neither am I aggressively against racism.” But there is no neutrality in the racism struggle. The opposite of “racist” isn’t “not racist.” It is “antiracist.”«
Ibram X. Kendi, How to Be an Antiracist
Imjurbro
I clearly said I ask the people around me not to be racist. It’s all it takes, demand people judge each other on our actions and beliefs, not on “race” (which is basically bullshit anyways) and we’re done.
Margrave9000
»The most threatening racist movement is not the alt right's unlikely drive for a White ethnostate but the regular American's drive for a 'race-neutral' one. The construct of race neutrality actually feeds White nationalist victimhood by positing the notion that any policy protecting or advancing non-White Americans toward equity is 'reverse discrimination.«
Ibram X. Kendi, How to Be an Antiracist
Imjurbro
I live in a very diverse place, I’m in an interracial relationship, and I travel often. Racism is 100% not a White thing. It’s all over and it’s unacceptable whoever does it and all should acted against in whatever form is appropriate at the time and place. Judge people by their actions not on whatever bullshit categories we come up to divide each other. If you disagree with that you’re not anti-racist. It’s that simple.
SylerCider
The same can be said of just white males. They need to see a strong white male character. Thelma & Louise would have grossed 10x more if the characters were 2 white males.
QueenOfTheFey
There's actually studies proving this.
Marginalized ppl are more able to identify with characters who and marginalized in ways they aren't and straight white men are not. (as a rule, not all men)
And the disconnect seems to happen around 10 years old. Little white boys can still identify with girl/poc/ect characters
GuyPilot
2 guys, having a quick kiss, then holding hands, dying together while being intimidated by throngs of female police officers...
I smell a good remake!!!
genericanamoly
Well shout out to Welcome to Derry imo. I felt they did a good job showing how big of assholes white people can be and waaaaay worse then some clown looking monster.
GentryFriedRichFillets
Honesty, one of the reasons I liked Lovecraft Country despite a lot of my other problems with the writing or overall plot.
There was not a single truly sympathetic white character. Even the few white characters who were allied were either revealed to be exploiting people of color, fetishizing people of color, or just too ignorant to realize that they were being incredibly racist and allied to white supremacists white being "nice" to everyone else.
Margrave9000
Although watching anything with Jonathan Majors is yuck. Too bad, but there are other shows...
Margrave9000
Yup, that's important. Control, develop and direct your tastes. Teach yourself to reject shows that force 'sympathetic Whites' on you.
Kwyjor
Are there a lot of movies that make people feel uncomfortable that are especially profitable..?
QueenOfTheFey
American war movies
trythebleucheese
Only horror
LurkerResearcher
Nah plenty aside from horror too. Although there definitely are a lot of horror movies
LurkerResearcher
I guess it depends what you mean by "a lot". It's not like we have a list of all highly profitable movies ever made to calculate a base rate from, but yes, there are many highly profitable movies that made audiences uncomfortable
EroticZombiePants
For example, Schindler's List pulled in over $300 million box office. It's the kind of movie you can only watch once, but tons of people wanted to see it.
FacelessAce
You mean the one named after their sympathetic white character (Oscar Schindler?) I think it may not be the best example.
LurkerResearcher
Were replying to person who made the first comment. That person asked specifically about movies that were profitable and made audiences uncomfortable. Try to keep up
FacelessAce
The first comment was made in response to the post, which was about sympathetic white characters existing to lessen audience discomfort. The fact that the example of a film that made audiences uncomfortable had this discomfort-reducing element should have been pointed out, The successful film that made audiences uncomfortable had something in it to make audiences more comfortable. I kept up just fine, did you?
FacelessAce
Also, it's spelled "We're." If you're going to be a smartass, learn to spell.
LurkerResearcher
He makes great points - though he really shouldn't use examples of movies he hasn't seen Green Book is based on a true story about a friendship that developed between a black and white man. They didn't just randomly insert a white guy to be his friend. The friendship is the entire point of the movie
onushka
Sorry to break it to you but the story is not true at all. It is a feel good movie written by the drivers family, the Shirley family is pissed of really heavy.
https://www.indiewire.com/news/general-news/green-book-controversy-shirley-family-lies-mahershala-ali-apology-1202028687/
LurkerResearcher
Hate to break it to you but your link doesn't support your comment and you should try to improve your reading comprehension. Both people are real and while the movie took liberties which were false the meaning of "based on a true story" does not mean 100% accurate.
LordLobster
The point is moot since his point was all black films are rarely greenlit. Having a white friend would make that particular film greenlit easily.
LurkerResearcher
While that's the point of his video he incorrectly uses it to state that white people get added to films. While it's true he just used a bad example
UmmonPrime
exactly, it was the entire point of his video.
Bojovnik84
Agreed. We also need to stop skipping actual history of where we white people were shit in history class. Through all of school and even 2 years of college, where I even minored in history, I never heard of the Tulsa race massacre. I first heard about it from The Watchmen series. I had to start googling from there. And that's an actual popular event, not to mention possibly thousands more I've no idea even happened.
DemSumBigAssRidges
Philadelphia police bombing a neighborhood, and the Battle of Blair Mountain.
Dannyalcatraz
See also the Great Mississippi River Floodof 1927, in which a levee was bombed in order to divert water away from weaker white neighborhoods into poorer areas populated largely by black & Italian families.
And- surprise, surprise!- promised reparations to those displaced were never paid.
probablywontbearoundlong
I learned about it a few years before Watchmen from an older black lady at work. She didn't refer to it as "Tulsa" or the "Tulsa Race Massacre" she referred to it as "Black Wall Street." When she first told me, in the back of my head I was kinda like "is Sheila just making shit up? no way this happened and I haven't heard about it." I googled it after she told me and was shocked. I should have known. Sheila never lied to me and was an absolutely upstanding person.
rezurok
When I first watched watchmen I went "huh...guess they're doing an alternate history thing here". I looked it up, and it turned out those jerks were educating me *shakes tiny fist*
facehitsground
As somebody born and raised in rural Oklahoma, it has always shocked me that people outside my state were never taught about it. Black Wall Street and the Tulsa Riot were super rough portions of our state history classes. I always assumed it was covered in US history classes elsewhere. Same thing with the Red River War being likely what convinced Hitler the US wouldn't join in WW2.
TheFastpaws
I learned about it from history YouTubers. YouTube has practically ruined YouTube for history YouTubers though. Just mentioning many uncomfortable words will get you demonetized. YouTube has no issues with white supremacists talking on the platform though.
Nebula doesn't have this issue but I'm broke.
Margrave9000
Never skip an opportunity to educate people - in particular, White people - on the evils of Whiteness. Since Whites still hold disproportionate amounts of privilege, efforts dismantling that privilege must be focused on them.
southflhitnrun
Oh boy, maybe watch the movie Rosewood.
These are things I was required to learn in High School.
clashatdemonhed
Wild, cause that too is how I learned about Tulsa.
jhgaaafvvbuiewadbvvbjmiurs
I am still flabbergasted that some people actually think Andrew Jackson was a good guy. Like... wtf?
killergrooves85
He’s my ancestor. 🫠
cannibl4
I got a 4 on the AP US history test and never heard of it. Learned it from the watchmen
newphonewhoodis
I am bummed to hear you didn’t learn more about it in college. I only needed to take 1 history elective for my degree, but the professor was a white dude who made a point of highlighting all the fucked up things the US has done to the black and indigenous peoples. It was a real eye opener and I’m so grateful.
Bojovnik84
Well, I took 2 classes, but one was focused on the history of religion and the other was just a history 101, which mostly glossed back over everything I learned in high school. The only additional info I got in high school, was taking Hisyory of the Vietnam War, which was a very specific focus obviously. All of my history classes where very short on white history. Lots of info from 6000 bc to slavery, 2 chapters on slavery and then skip through the revolution and civil war, right to more current
onushka
Same with Tulsa, learned from it in The Watchmen, really great show, on the other hand my education was in Europe. Today I realized that we learned nothing about Colonialism in my German school, nothing about the massacre of the Herero and Nama, only that there were Slavery and for which products the people were changed. Today pupils read in Germany at least sometimes "Things Fall apart" from Chinua Achebe.
psugab
To be fair, there is another period from the mid 1900s that Germany is pretty famous for how y'all handle learning about it
tychog99
By which we mean "very extensibly and honestly"
psugab
Exactly
onushka
We say about the bad "education" about the Nazis, they came with an UFO and leave with an UFO. You doesn't really learn about the continuities of the Nazis in the German society. Yes, some leaders got new ties after the Nuremberg Process but many of the Nazis went back to their normal live and their positions without consequences. Romas and Sinties lost their German citisenships and received recognition in the mid 90s. The education is really not so great.