LUKE SKYWALKER - The difference between a Mary Sue & A well developed character is:  Struggle, change, failure, and acknowledging failure.

Dec 23, 2020 8:48 PM

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We, the audience, admire a character more, not for them being better than everyone else since the beginning (or trying once, then immediately mastering in seconds what should be a journey); But for how many times they failed, struggled, & changed to be the best in the end.

Another attempt, failure. (Good)

He is advised on what he isn't doing by a mentor, an established Master. (Important detail) Then he, the greenhorn, listens to the advice, adjusts, succeeds (AFTER failure): "acknowledgement of failure & thus change"

??????????????? ?? ???????, important. For how will the change, within context, feel organic if the character in question, isn't aware of why they should change.

Context is structure, without structure, chaos; Trash character.

Absolute domination by a Master opponent, fail. (Good)

Another instance, he manages to tag the opponent, provoking them to stop holding back, he loses a hand as a result; Loss, failure. He doesn't close his eyes, & magically muster up the power of plot, ???? ??????? ? ????? ?? ?????????? ?????? ????.

After some time, he, now a "Jedi", "Returns", AFTER training. NOW he can compete with his Master Opponent, even turn the tides, it makes sense. We've witnessed the failure, the acknowledgement of said failure, thus struggle, ergo change.

Now you'll reasonably point out: Technically, ?? ?????'? ???????? ???? ??? ?????????? ???? ? ????.
Yes, however, we've seen him train with 2 different people. Failing under both their tutelage, and succeeding after instruction in an instance, showing he has to learn, room to grow, develop.

By that formula & establishment, we can reasonably infer that he's worked for his current status, basic but important to plant these elements beforehand so the time-skip for said new abilities feels organic.

Precision & Speed.

Control.

Power.
And the best kind of power for a character, is learned power, earned power.

His evolution is organic, because he's struggled to achieve this level of Mastery. Luke Skywalker is a, classic, well developed character.

So is it all women you hate, or...?

5 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 1

I wonder if the @op is subtly referring to another leading character in the Star Wars universe being a poorly written Mary Sue. Hmmm...

5 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 0

What a bunch of balls

5 years ago | Likes 4 Dislikes 1

His character arc directly follows the hero's journey, Joseph Campbell's comparative mythological theory. George Lucas even knew Campbell!

5 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 0

Y'all passive-aggressive dicks making me sad to be a Star Wars fan here.

5 years ago | Likes 6 Dislikes 3

5 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

5 years ago | Likes 4 Dislikes 1

5 years ago | Likes 19 Dislikes 0

“Well...that’s the end of that idea then...”

5 years ago | Likes 4 Dislikes 0

Ive rewatched this scene so many times, and onions are still getting cut.

5 years ago | Likes 7 Dislikes 0

Youtube "the drinker fixes rey" "the drinker fixes finn" and "the drinker fixes Luke" amazing videos of how the last movies could have gone

5 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

I never liked the Luke/Leia storyline. Seemed like there was so many more interesting stories to tell from established characters.

5 years ago | Likes 4 Dislikes 4

I will say you can make a character who is automatically great at something, but then the development has to be something else. For example>

5 years ago | Likes 11 Dislikes 0

characters like Raven from Teen Titans have awesome cosmic power, but then their arc is about learning to control it/come to terms with >

5 years ago | Likes 11 Dislikes 0

themselves. While Anakin Skywalker also has pretty awesome natural magic powers his struggle is instead about his temptations and >

5 years ago | Likes 11 Dislikes 0

what he must do to avoid using his powers for evil (which he fails). To bring up the Rey sized hole here, she almost had this problem. In >

5 years ago | Likes 11 Dislikes 0

both TLJ and RoS they bring up how she is struggling with the dark side. Only... it's all just words they don't really do anything with it.

5 years ago | Likes 10 Dislikes 0

Did you miss the bit where she very nearly joins Kylo Ren?

5 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 4

One Punch Man is the obvious example of this taken to it's extreme. He's utterly overpowered... At something that's really not what's -

5 years ago | Likes 4 Dislikes 0

The lack of this kind of struggle and growth is why Kylo Ren is such a flat weak character. Why should we care about his tears?

5 years ago | Likes 9 Dislikes 1

I liked Kylo's story/arc/backstory better than Rey's and went into 8 and 9 hoping he would magically slide into the protagonist slot....

5 years ago | Likes 4 Dislikes 0

His struggle was between his innate good nature, his distain for his father and Luke on personal grounds, and the desire to prove himself 1/

5 years ago | Likes 5 Dislikes 0

to a new father figure (Snoke and the idea of Vader). TBQH it's believable for a teenager. 2/2

5 years ago | Likes 5 Dislikes 0

Mixed feelings on writing a character that struggles against being good, when they want to be evil. It seems to harder to relate to.

5 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

They want to prove they can be strong. I knew a kid who was a Skinhead and that was about 1/2 his motivation. Maybe that's why I relate.

5 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

Strong I get. Evil just doesn't make sense to me. Somewhere along the lines of "...oft evil, will evil mar."

5 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

Thing is, TLJ was supposed to be that for Rey. The whole film she's just trying to be Luke 2.0, and it doesn't work: she can't redeem...

5 years ago | Likes 18 Dislikes 3

Kylo because their relationship just isn't that of Luke and his father. She must defeat him her own way. Until Rise just goes 'fuck it KISS'

5 years ago | Likes 17 Dislikes 3

But there's no consequence, the next time we see her shes smiling and blowing up Ties & saves the day. The movie falls apart in the last act

5 years ago | Likes 12 Dislikes 4

Basically all of the scenes not involving her were just awful.

5 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 1

Though I agree, Johnson did try to give her some failure. I just wish it was taken farther. JJ on the other hand...

5 years ago | Likes 8 Dislikes 3

So basically- take the formula we used in the first movies and repeat even though we’ve already done that arc before? Right.

5 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 2

Check out A Hero’s Journey by Joseph Campbell. We have been telling that story throughout human history.

5 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

You mean the hero with a thousand faces yes? Yeah I own a copy. And yes. Which is why the rejection of the mono myth as a template and using

5 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

A differing mythic story (aka the Gilgamesh template) was used for Rey; and that’s not even mentioning that by necessity after the first 3

5 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

Films, they had to go from magic to fable- stories about myths as opposed to the mythic tales themselves. (Shrugs)

5 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

I really tried to like Rey, but the story is total damp smelly ass

5 years ago | Likes 12 Dislikes 3

Apparently Imgur doesn't convert special font. Great, definitely doesn't fuck with my OCD, not at all.

5 years ago | Likes 51 Dislikes 4

Yeah man, tbh I do not know what you were trying to do in this post with your captions. lol. Explain?

5 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

You could edit your post in your gallery...

5 years ago | Likes 21 Dislikes 0

No hate, but I have OCD and would love if the world stopped using my exhausting, debilitating condition as a synonym for neat and orderly

5 years ago | Likes 11 Dislikes 5

devil's advocate. when you have....quirks...you get ridiculed and called OCD and autistic. Calling yourself those things takes it away.

5 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 1

Takes what away? Ridicule? If so, it most certainty does not. My whole complaint is public ignorance of serious mental disorders 1/2

5 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

Are you calling such conditions a colletion of quirks? If so I'd say you've fallen pray to the social phenomenon I'm taking issue with 2/2

5 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

No dude im not.

5 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

It reduces the severity of the condition, making it harder for people with it to communicate special needs or request empathy

5 years ago | Likes 10 Dislikes 4

5 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

Yeah, her being instantly good at everything she tries is not a good sign.

5 years ago | Likes 26 Dislikes 5

At first I thought we were getting set up for her having already gotten training that was "force blocked" in her mind or something.

5 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

Luke Skywalker gets in an X-Wing two days after leaving home for the first time and blows up the Death Star.

5 years ago | Likes 6 Dislikes 4

And he grew up training in Incom T16 airspeeders, which have nearly identical controls and were used as trainers for the Incom T65B X-wing

5 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

And Rey grew up fighting for survival, scrapping Imperial ships, and trying to build tech that could let her thrive on Jakku.

5 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

1/2 Ah, but he actually had prior experience as a pilot, and that experience was gained in the canyons on Tatooine. So the Death Star's

5 years ago | Likes 8 Dislikes 1

2/2 trenches weren't too far out of his experience. He might also have had some innate talent for piloting, like Anakin did.

5 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 1

And T-16 was from the same manufacturer and about the same size, so a smaller learning curve.

5 years ago | Likes 5 Dislikes 0

I just checked and the SW wiki specifically notes that the controls of the T-16 were similar to those of the T-65 X-wing.

5 years ago | Likes 5 Dislikes 1

Except precisely none of that is in the movie itself, except by implication. Rey's skills are the same.

5 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

Please 90% fantasy is that alone. But Heros journey and chosen ones stories should not be compared.

5 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

I feel bad for Daisy Ridley (and most of the actors/actresses). Fantastic acting ruined by shitty writing.

5 years ago | Likes 98 Dislikes 6

And directors who were never on the same page, trying to undo what the other had done

5 years ago | Likes 48 Dislikes 0

Fun fact, the writers and directors not being on the same page was a trend for the OT

5 years ago | Likes 4 Dislikes 1

Vader was supposed to be a unimportant goon. Bobba fett was supposed to be the big bad guy in Vader stead.

5 years ago | Likes 5 Dislikes 0

Vader wasn't originally Luke's dad.

5 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 0

But they did have one guiding FORCE (see what I did there?) behind it all to hold it together, which these didn't have

5 years ago | Likes 6 Dislikes 1

"A jedi's weapon deserves more respect. Rian."

5 years ago | Likes 9 Dislikes 1

"They sold you for drinking money, to protect you, because they were nobody scavengers and also the son of the ruler of the galaxy."

5 years ago | Likes 10 Dislikes 1

She did such a good job, all the actors did tbh.

5 years ago | Likes 35 Dislikes 2

Seriously. All the actors deserved better. Fucking Carrie Fisher deserved better for her final role

5 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

Nothing against the actress who played Rose, but damn her whole arc was the worst. I'd replace her scenes with the Christmas special.

5 years ago | Likes 8 Dislikes 0

I still enjoy ep.7 because the character interactions were so good (basically Fin + anybody = gold, especially with Poe)

5 years ago | Likes 6 Dislikes 1

The writing wasn’t even that bad, decent by Star Wars standards. It’s simply a series the fandom loves to hate. This post, for example, just

5 years ago | Likes 26 Dislikes 32

Whoa! The incels are just critiquing honestly like always.

5 years ago | Likes 7 Dislikes 8

I like TFA well enough.

5 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 0

Sort of ignores LARGE chunks of both movies to make their point. Let’s take the whole ‘Luke didn’t just close his eyes and focus to do the

5 years ago | Likes 23 Dislikes 8

Thing’. Except that’s literally what Luke did. Luke, flying a craft he has never flown under heavy fire in his first space battle using a

5 years ago | Likes 23 Dislikes 10

Weapon he had literally never even fired while in space, someplace he had never flown before, closed his eyes and used the Force to bullseye

5 years ago | Likes 24 Dislikes 7

A target that actual experienced pilots declared to be nearly impossible. While going full speed. That’s insane. Rey, by contrast, got in a

5 years ago | Likes 21 Dislikes 7

Did you watch the same set of movies as we did? The sequels had nothing short of atrocious writing.

5 years ago | Likes 8 Dislikes 4

There is a collective of "woke defenders" of the new sequels because it upset cis white men

5 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 5

That is about the only thing I enjoy about the new movies. They’re trash, but not for the reasons the butthurt conservative morons say.

5 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 2

Which is par for the course for Star Wars. Star Wars has terrible writing, it always has. Have you even seen a majority of the series? The

5 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

shittiest parts of the sequels don't hold a candle to Anakin and Padme's romance scenes.

5 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

I am a casual fan who doesn't care that much about Star Wars and I thought the writing in the new movies was AWFUL

5 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 0

It's Star Wars. They ALL have awful writing. Lucas is a bad writer, the OT was only saved by other people hijacking his project. The

5 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

prequels, especially Episode 1, are Lucas's vision to Star Wars. Nothing in the sequels is even bad enough to meme, it's dull rather than

5 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

atrocious.

5 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

5 years ago | Likes 81 Dislikes 1

5 years ago | Likes 61 Dislikes 0

Beautiful

5 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

This is amazing! The squeeky snitch is perfect!

5 years ago | Likes 10 Dislikes 0

My only regret is that I have but one updoot to give

5 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

?????????????????? ?????? ????????????????????????? ? ?????????? ???? ????????????????? ??????????????? ???????????????? ?????????

5 years ago | Likes 641 Dislikes 8

It's redacted for our safety.

5 years ago | Likes 15 Dislikes 0

✓✓✓✓ ✓✓✓✓ ✓✓✓✓|∆¶∆∆∆∆∆

5 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

.-- .... .- - ..--..

5 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

I imagined these question marks like the pauses in slam poetry while reading the post ?

5 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

@@@@@@@@@@@********%%%%%%%%%%%#%###^>><<€\^~!~£~?~^~!~

5 years ago | Likes 4 Dislikes 0

I see your point, but you failed to consider ??????????? ??? ???????????????? ???????? ?? ??????? ???? ????????????? ??????????? ????!!!!!!!

5 years ago | Likes 41 Dislikes 0

????? ??????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ? ???? ????? ????????? ????????? ?? ???????????? ??? ?

5 years ago | Likes 119 Dislikes 1

??????? ???? ?????? ?? ? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?? ??? ????? ???????

5 years ago | Likes 16 Dislikes 0

???? ???!

5 years ago | Likes 10 Dislikes 0

¿????????? ???? ??? ????? ? ?? ??????? ‽

5 years ago | Likes 9 Dislikes 0

???? ??? ????!?!?!?!?!

5 years ago | Likes 9 Dislikes 0

!!!!!!! !! !!!! !!! ! !!!!!!!!!!! !!!! !! !! !!!!!! !!!!! !!!! !!!!!!!!?

5 years ago | Likes 73 Dislikes 1

No.

5 years ago | Likes 16 Dislikes 0

!!!!

5 years ago | Likes 14 Dislikes 0

???????????? ????????? ?????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? What’s a Mary Sue ???????????????????

5 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 1

What men often call a female protagonist.

5 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

It’s a pejorative term for a strong woman in a movie, particularly if they have no obvious flaws.

5 years ago | Likes 5 Dislikes 2

It's really not. It might be used that way by some, but it is a literary definition, at least colloquially. 1/3

5 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 3

"(originally in fan fiction) a type of female character who is depicted as unrealistically lacking in flaws or weaknesses." The 2/4

5 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 2

difference isn't that they have no obvious flaws, it's that they're unrealistically lacking in any kind of flaw or 3/4

5 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 2

weakness. Gary Stu applies to male characters with the same writing mistakes. 4/4

5 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 2

he was on dagoba training for a couple of days, maybe

5 years ago | Likes 21 Dislikes 38

And then....lost. Because he didn’t finish his training. He lost. And lost a hand.Huh weird.

5 years ago | Likes 19 Dislikes 0

And then he went back

5 years ago | Likes 21 Dislikes 0

And IIRC it was a several years in universe between Empire and Jedi. Do you really think he did nothing that entire time?

5 years ago | Likes 34 Dislikes 1

the time between empire and Return is six months

5 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 0

Masturbated his way to clarity and enlightenment using his built-in "stranger"

5 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 0

5 years ago | Likes 5 Dislikes 0

That blue walrus titty milk tho

5 years ago | Likes 227 Dislikes 5

5 years ago | Likes 5 Dislikes 0

I'm happy pretending the last three didn't happen.

5 years ago | Likes 40 Dislikes 4

Individually they would have been ok sci fi movies. But as eps 7-9 of a larger anthology they failed

5 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

What last three?

5 years ago | Likes 23 Dislikes 1

Exactly.

5 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 0

Adam Driver was alright in it.

5 years ago | Likes 10 Dislikes 1

My favorite part of all 3 was his tiny shrug at the end of ros when rey force passes him the lightsaber to fight tge knights

5 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

5 years ago | Likes 8 Dislikes 0

Not only that but the two major achievements by Luke, blowing up the death star and defeating the Emperor were only achieved with help

5 years ago | Likes 360 Dislikes 2

The way he defeated the Emperor was by saving what he loved, and he didn't even have to fucking say it after dooming all his friends.

5 years ago | Likes 33 Dislikes 0

Could you imagine how his life would have turned out if someone else had destroyed the deathstar first? Like, if the first guy who tried 1/2

5 years ago | Likes 5 Dislikes 0

shooting the torpedos at the thermal port made the shot?

5 years ago | Likes 5 Dislikes 0

Going By the X-Wing expansion, B-Wing, he still became super important somehow >:(

5 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

Also he technically didn't defeat the emperor, as anakin did. Luke helped his father redeem himself, even better than saving him himself

5 years ago | Likes 126 Dislikes 0

well. lando would have been the ultimate victor regardless. He blew up the second deathstar while the emperor just overconfidently chilled

5 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

Indeed, Anakin was always the chosen one, destined to bring the Sith down. He still did do that in the most dramatic anakin way possible

5 years ago | Likes 35 Dislikes 2

He played a 20 year game of destruction and redemption

5 years ago | Likes 12 Dislikes 0

It wasn't to bring the Sith down, it was to bring balance to the force. He did: the light side was dominant over the dark side. Was.

5 years ago | Likes 22 Dislikes 0

That's a great point. Even his legendary achievement was assisted. That makes him going full hermit make more sense; he tried to love up to>

5 years ago | Likes 39 Dislikes 18

I mean how many times did the real MVP Han Solo save his ass or help him out

5 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 1

No. Luke Skywalker does not quit. That's the point of this post. The Disney trilogy shat on the legacy of ALL the characters.

5 years ago | Likes 43 Dislikes 8

the legend and couldn't. Doubt and regret made him realize that he wasn't the stories told about him, so he (wrongly) removed himself.

5 years ago | Likes 22 Dislikes 17

Hermit maybe, its the bitter old man that tried to kill his nephew that i dont buy

5 years ago | Likes 27 Dislikes 5

I'm not a huge fan of the sequels, but any head canon that justifies them is welcome. Like Ray being the reincarnation of the emperor, and>

5 years ago | Likes 4 Dislikes 3

The emporer in TLS being a clone. She was channeling the OGs power, and the clone wanted it. Not great, but easier to digest.

5 years ago | Likes 4 Dislikes 2

It could have been if they'd shown some of what happened to change him. It's the jump from redeeming his father who had actually done 1/

5 years ago | Likes 4 Dislikes 0

2/ terrible things to considering murdering his nephew in his sleep because he had the potential to do terrible things without any hint of

5 years ago | Likes 4 Dislikes 0

What are those last 3 clips from? I don’t recognize them.

5 years ago | Likes 4 Dislikes 1

Don't worry about it.

5 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

Mandalorian.

5 years ago | Likes 4 Dislikes 1

I guess I have some episodes to catch up on.

5 years ago | Likes 4 Dislikes 0

it's from the season 2 finale (just watched it last night) it was pretty badass, and didn't overstay it's welcome. good action

5 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

I'm about two behind, but there's been so many spoilers on here that I've practically seen half of the episodes already.

5 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 0

So much for usersub angels and all that noise. :c

5 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

My personal rule is six months for a show/movie. Long enough for people to see it out of theaters. But here, it is 24 hours tops. >

5 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

I wonder if OP has a hate-boner for the sequels.

5 years ago | Likes 42 Dislikes 46

Or a regular boner for no particular reason?

5 years ago | Likes 5 Dislikes 1

5 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

OMG! It’s Terry Crews! On my comment!!

5 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

Why is bitching about star wars such a big deal to people suddenly this week?

5 years ago | Likes 27 Dislikes 2

The Favreau/Filoni tag team exposed the obvious (to some) weaknesses in the sequels' development.

5 years ago | Likes 27 Dislikes 2

Who?

5 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

Is it a hate boner if its legit criticism?

5 years ago | Likes 52 Dislikes 7

I think if you can't see a good thing without immediately comparing it to the thing you hate then it is a hate-boner.

5 years ago | Likes 7 Dislikes 37

Worth pointing out @OP doesn't mention the sequels at all, you did.

5 years ago | Likes 24 Dislikes 1

Yep. It's entirely possible OP wasn't thinking of the sequels at all while posting this.

5 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 24

Man, Star Wars nerds really hate when you are a reasonable human being, I guess.

5 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 9

Wait, didn't he closed his eyes and blow up the Death Star in literally episode one of his appearance without any practice, being a farmer?

5 years ago | Likes 7 Dislikes 3

There's literally clips of him practicing in this post. If you mean practicing at ship combat: Luke says he's been planning on joining the -

5 years ago | Likes 6 Dislikes 1

- space military fairly early, and later says he's practiced hitting similar targets in a Very similar craft (T-16 Sky Hoppers are used as -

5 years ago | Likes 7 Dislikes 1

- a training method by X-Wing pilots.) So he's got possibly Years of training on that count.

5 years ago | Likes 8 Dislikes 1

And he STILL needed help, from both his mentor and his friend, because he couldn't do it alone.

5 years ago | Likes 8 Dislikes 0

He was going to join the Imperial Academy.

5 years ago | Likes 4 Dislikes 1

^THIS! Now fuck off to everyone who tries to label Luke a Gary Stu.

5 years ago | Likes 6 Dislikes 0

They mention he used to "bullseye" rats where he grew up, which were about the size of the exhaust port.

5 years ago | Likes 8 Dislikes 0

In a T-16 Skyhopper. The ship X-Wing pilots train with. 'Cause he was practicing to join the Imperial Academy.

5 years ago | Likes 4 Dislikes 0

Yeah.

5 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0