Lesserm00K
91732
1943
100
We, the audience, admire a character more, not for them being better than everyone else since the beginning (or trying once, then immediately mastering in seconds what should be a journey); But for how many times they failed, struggled, & changed to be the best in the end.
Another attempt, failure. (Good)
He is advised on what he isn't doing by a mentor, an established Master. (Important detail) Then he, the greenhorn, listens to the advice, adjusts, succeeds (AFTER failure): "acknowledgement of failure & thus change"
??????????????? ?? ???????, important. For how will the change, within context, feel organic if the character in question, isn't aware of why they should change.
Context is structure, without structure, chaos; Trash character.
Absolute domination by a Master opponent, fail. (Good)
Another instance, he manages to tag the opponent, provoking them to stop holding back, he loses a hand as a result; Loss, failure. He doesn't close his eyes, & magically muster up the power of plot, ???? ??????? ? ????? ?? ?????????? ?????? ????.
After some time, he, now a "Jedi", "Returns", AFTER training. NOW he can compete with his Master Opponent, even turn the tides, it makes sense. We've witnessed the failure, the acknowledgement of said failure, thus struggle, ergo change.
Now you'll reasonably point out: Technically, ?? ?????'? ???????? ???? ??? ?????????? ???? ? ????.
Yes, however, we've seen him train with 2 different people. Failing under both their tutelage, and succeeding after instruction in an instance, showing he has to learn, room to grow, develop.
By that formula & establishment, we can reasonably infer that he's worked for his current status, basic but important to plant these elements beforehand so the time-skip for said new abilities feels organic.
Precision & Speed.
Control.
Power.
And the best kind of power for a character, is learned power, earned power.
His evolution is organic, because he's struggled to achieve this level of Mastery. Luke Skywalker is a, classic, well developed character.
DeathRascal
So is it all women you hate, or...?
dentalfury
I wonder if the @op is subtly referring to another leading character in the Star Wars universe being a poorly written Mary Sue. Hmmm...
CakeTerrorizer
What a bunch of balls
HeyILikeDogs
His character arc directly follows the hero's journey, Joseph Campbell's comparative mythological theory. George Lucas even knew Campbell!
TastyBrainMeats
Y'all passive-aggressive dicks making me sad to be a Star Wars fan here.
wlfman
XVUltima
Lesserm00K
For context on the "??????s"(sorry btw): https://lk-last-knight.tumblr.com/post/638327397204312065/the-difference-between-a-mary-sue-a-well
ThisSubCouldUseMoreBees
Thelrishlnquistion
“Well...that’s the end of that idea then...”
JustHereToSeeStuff
Ive rewatched this scene so many times, and onions are still getting cut.
fooglephish
Youtube "the drinker fixes rey" "the drinker fixes finn" and "the drinker fixes Luke" amazing videos of how the last movies could have gone
HolyCowDoNotEat
I never liked the Luke/Leia storyline. Seemed like there was so many more interesting stories to tell from established characters.
SometimesISayHistoryStuff
I will say you can make a character who is automatically great at something, but then the development has to be something else. For example>
SometimesISayHistoryStuff
characters like Raven from Teen Titans have awesome cosmic power, but then their arc is about learning to control it/come to terms with >
SometimesISayHistoryStuff
themselves. While Anakin Skywalker also has pretty awesome natural magic powers his struggle is instead about his temptations and >
SometimesISayHistoryStuff
what he must do to avoid using his powers for evil (which he fails). To bring up the Rey sized hole here, she almost had this problem. In >
SometimesISayHistoryStuff
both TLJ and RoS they bring up how she is struggling with the dark side. Only... it's all just words they don't really do anything with it.
TastyBrainMeats
Did you miss the bit where she very nearly joins Kylo Ren?
Crowlands
One Punch Man is the obvious example of this taken to it's extreme. He's utterly overpowered... At something that's really not what's -
AgnesMcGillicuddy
The lack of this kind of struggle and growth is why Kylo Ren is such a flat weak character. Why should we care about his tears?
magsmartigan
I liked Kylo's story/arc/backstory better than Rey's and went into 8 and 9 hoping he would magically slide into the protagonist slot....
Cheomesh
His struggle was between his innate good nature, his distain for his father and Luke on personal grounds, and the desire to prove himself 1/
Cheomesh
to a new father figure (Snoke and the idea of Vader). TBQH it's believable for a teenager. 2/2
SilereVitam
Mixed feelings on writing a character that struggles against being good, when they want to be evil. It seems to harder to relate to.
Cheomesh
They want to prove they can be strong. I knew a kid who was a Skinhead and that was about 1/2 his motivation. Maybe that's why I relate.
SilereVitam
Strong I get. Evil just doesn't make sense to me. Somewhere along the lines of "...oft evil, will evil mar."
ApparentlyBritish
Thing is, TLJ was supposed to be that for Rey. The whole film she's just trying to be Luke 2.0, and it doesn't work: she can't redeem...
ApparentlyBritish
Kylo because their relationship just isn't that of Luke and his father. She must defeat him her own way. Until Rise just goes 'fuck it KISS'
PJsnaks
But there's no consequence, the next time we see her shes smiling and blowing up Ties & saves the day. The movie falls apart in the last act
Cheomesh
Basically all of the scenes not involving her were just awful.
PJsnaks
Though I agree, Johnson did try to give her some failure. I just wish it was taken farther. JJ on the other hand...
thefeckamisigningupwithfacebook
So basically- take the formula we used in the first movies and repeat even though we’ve already done that arc before? Right.
RazalasTwen
Check out A Hero’s Journey by Joseph Campbell. We have been telling that story throughout human history.
thefeckamisigningupwithfacebook
You mean the hero with a thousand faces yes? Yeah I own a copy. And yes. Which is why the rejection of the mono myth as a template and using
thefeckamisigningupwithfacebook
A differing mythic story (aka the Gilgamesh template) was used for Rey; and that’s not even mentioning that by necessity after the first 3
thefeckamisigningupwithfacebook
Films, they had to go from magic to fable- stories about myths as opposed to the mythic tales themselves. (Shrugs)
Naramumu
I really tried to like Rey, but the story is total damp smelly ass
Lesserm00K
Apparently Imgur doesn't convert special font. Great, definitely doesn't fuck with my OCD, not at all.
ThenIDefyYouStars
Yeah man, tbh I do not know what you were trying to do in this post with your captions. lol. Explain?
fskn
You could edit your post in your gallery...
JerTurowetz
No hate, but I have OCD and would love if the world stopped using my exhausting, debilitating condition as a synonym for neat and orderly
Luchadorbeaux
devil's advocate. when you have....quirks...you get ridiculed and called OCD and autistic. Calling yourself those things takes it away.
JerTurowetz
Takes what away? Ridicule? If so, it most certainty does not. My whole complaint is public ignorance of serious mental disorders 1/2
JerTurowetz
Are you calling such conditions a colletion of quirks? If so I'd say you've fallen pray to the social phenomenon I'm taking issue with 2/2
Luchadorbeaux
No dude im not.
JerTurowetz
It reduces the severity of the condition, making it harder for people with it to communicate special needs or request empathy
DiscoTurtle87
ElbowdeepinAgony
Yeah, her being instantly good at everything she tries is not a good sign.
Cheomesh
At first I thought we were getting set up for her having already gotten training that was "force blocked" in her mind or something.
TastyBrainMeats
Luke Skywalker gets in an X-Wing two days after leaving home for the first time and blows up the Death Star.
potatorat45
And he grew up training in Incom T16 airspeeders, which have nearly identical controls and were used as trainers for the Incom T65B X-wing
TastyBrainMeats
And Rey grew up fighting for survival, scrapping Imperial ships, and trying to build tech that could let her thrive on Jakku.
LordPics
1/2 Ah, but he actually had prior experience as a pilot, and that experience was gained in the canyons on Tatooine. So the Death Star's
LordPics
2/2 trenches weren't too far out of his experience. He might also have had some innate talent for piloting, like Anakin did.
subduedreader
And T-16 was from the same manufacturer and about the same size, so a smaller learning curve.
LordPics
I just checked and the SW wiki specifically notes that the controls of the T-16 were similar to those of the T-65 X-wing.
TastyBrainMeats
Except precisely none of that is in the movie itself, except by implication. Rey's skills are the same.
Jupman
Please 90% fantasy is that alone. But Heros journey and chosen ones stories should not be compared.
SpammaJamma
I feel bad for Daisy Ridley (and most of the actors/actresses). Fantastic acting ruined by shitty writing.
PacMan4Life
And directors who were never on the same page, trying to undo what the other had done
Covidnineteen
Fun fact, the writers and directors not being on the same page was a trend for the OT
Covidnineteen
Vader was supposed to be a unimportant goon. Bobba fett was supposed to be the big bad guy in Vader stead.
Covidnineteen
Vader wasn't originally Luke's dad.
PacMan4Life
But they did have one guiding FORCE (see what I did there?) behind it all to hold it together, which these didn't have
Crowlands
"A jedi's weapon deserves more respect. Rian."
Crowlands
"They sold you for drinking money, to protect you, because they were nobody scavengers and also the son of the ruler of the galaxy."
PJsnaks
She did such a good job, all the actors did tbh.
xSquireRamza9
Seriously. All the actors deserved better. Fucking Carrie Fisher deserved better for her final role
whyaminotstudying
Nothing against the actress who played Rose, but damn her whole arc was the worst. I'd replace her scenes with the Christmas special.
PacMan4Life
I still enjoy ep.7 because the character interactions were so good (basically Fin + anybody = gold, especially with Poe)
Dagordae
The writing wasn’t even that bad, decent by Star Wars standards. It’s simply a series the fandom loves to hate. This post, for example, just
fknbastard
Whoa! The incels are just critiquing honestly like always.
Cheomesh
I like TFA well enough.
thefeckamisigningupwithfacebook
Dagordae
Sort of ignores LARGE chunks of both movies to make their point. Let’s take the whole ‘Luke didn’t just close his eyes and focus to do the
Dagordae
Thing’. Except that’s literally what Luke did. Luke, flying a craft he has never flown under heavy fire in his first space battle using a
Dagordae
Weapon he had literally never even fired while in space, someplace he had never flown before, closed his eyes and used the Force to bullseye
Dagordae
A target that actual experienced pilots declared to be nearly impossible. While going full speed. That’s insane. Rey, by contrast, got in a
Kiwibunny
Did you watch the same set of movies as we did? The sequels had nothing short of atrocious writing.
Iftheyredeadtheyrejusthookers
There is a collective of "woke defenders" of the new sequels because it upset cis white men
AmazinglyCoolNameHere
That is about the only thing I enjoy about the new movies. They’re trash, but not for the reasons the butthurt conservative morons say.
Dagordae
Which is par for the course for Star Wars. Star Wars has terrible writing, it always has. Have you even seen a majority of the series? The
Dagordae
shittiest parts of the sequels don't hold a candle to Anakin and Padme's romance scenes.
barrocoyote
I am a casual fan who doesn't care that much about Star Wars and I thought the writing in the new movies was AWFUL
Dagordae
It's Star Wars. They ALL have awful writing. Lucas is a bad writer, the OT was only saved by other people hijacking his project. The
Dagordae
prequels, especially Episode 1, are Lucas's vision to Star Wars. Nothing in the sequels is even bad enough to meme, it's dull rather than
Dagordae
atrocious.
Deadpool854
ToCrushYourEnemiesSeeThemDrivenBeforeYouToHearTheLamentation
ElbowdeepinAgony
Beautiful
PacMan4Life
This is amazing! The squeeky snitch is perfect!
LordYathnon
My only regret is that I have but one updoot to give
ToCrushYourEnemiesSeeThemDrivenBeforeYouToHearTheLamentation
godzilladc
?????????????????? ?????? ????????????????????????? ? ?????????? ???? ????????????????? ??????????????? ???????????????? ?????????
SnapKylePop
It's redacted for our safety.
YummyDigital
✓✓✓✓ ✓✓✓✓ ✓✓✓✓|∆¶∆∆∆∆∆
SlAM113
.-- .... .- - ..--..
youcaneven
I imagined these question marks like the pauses in slam poetry while reading the post ?
JOKERZwild86
@@@@@@@@@@@********%%%%%%%%%%%#%###^>><<€\^~!~£~?~^~!~
SomeGuyWhoSaysStuff
I see your point, but you failed to consider ??????????? ??? ???????????????? ???????? ?? ??????? ???? ????????????? ??????????? ????!!!!!!!
Fierob
????? ??????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ? ???? ????? ????????? ????????? ?? ???????????? ??? ?
Holdmyhectocotylus
??????? ???? ?????? ?? ? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?? ??? ????? ???????
HillOfBeans
???? ???!
prairiehomedog
¿????????? ???? ??? ????? ? ?? ??????? ‽
alcaray
???? ??? ????!?!?!?!?!
Basterdsugar
!!!!!!! !! !!!! !!! ! !!!!!!!!!!! !!!! !! !! !!!!!! !!!!! !!!! !!!!!!!!?
godzilladc
No.
Basterdsugar
!!!!
broketonystark
???????????? ????????? ?????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? What’s a Mary Sue ???????????????????
Lawohki
What men often call a female protagonist.
wadatahmydamie
It’s a pejorative term for a strong woman in a movie, particularly if they have no obvious flaws.
SigneowTheCat
It's really not. It might be used that way by some, but it is a literary definition, at least colloquially. 1/3
SigneowTheCat
"(originally in fan fiction) a type of female character who is depicted as unrealistically lacking in flaws or weaknesses." The 2/4
SigneowTheCat
difference isn't that they have no obvious flaws, it's that they're unrealistically lacking in any kind of flaw or 3/4
SigneowTheCat
weakness. Gary Stu applies to male characters with the same writing mistakes. 4/4
maximilianfragglebottom
he was on dagoba training for a couple of days, maybe
Ehilgy
And then....lost. Because he didn’t finish his training. He lost. And lost a hand.Huh weird.
JustAConfusedBritishGuy
And then he went back
Wulfborn
And IIRC it was a several years in universe between Empire and Jedi. Do you really think he did nothing that entire time?
Cumberdale
the time between empire and Return is six months
TerryCrews
Masturbated his way to clarity and enlightenment using his built-in "stranger"
Thelrishlnquistion
heyrelaxfellayouneedarestguy
That blue walrus titty milk tho
ToCrushYourEnemiesSeeThemDrivenBeforeYouToHearTheLamentation
HandoB4Javert
Melonfish
I'm happy pretending the last three didn't happen.
jzastrow
Individually they would have been ok sci fi movies. But as eps 7-9 of a larger anthology they failed
MrStickyCheeks
What last three?
LookingCoolJoker
Exactly.
fskn
Adam Driver was alright in it.
tentacularfleshscape
My favorite part of all 3 was his tiny shrug at the end of ros when rey force passes him the lightsaber to fight tge knights
grimwyrd
MadMupp
Not only that but the two major achievements by Luke, blowing up the death star and defeating the Emperor were only achieved with help
SoapyMammaryMasturbation
The way he defeated the Emperor was by saving what he loved, and he didn't even have to fucking say it after dooming all his friends.
SmokeyM
Could you imagine how his life would have turned out if someone else had destroyed the deathstar first? Like, if the first guy who tried 1/2
SmokeyM
shooting the torpedos at the thermal port made the shot?
MacClay
Going By the X-Wing expansion, B-Wing, he still became super important somehow >:(
beoluves
Also he technically didn't defeat the emperor, as anakin did. Luke helped his father redeem himself, even better than saving him himself
lunchboxbilly
well. lando would have been the ultimate victor regardless. He blew up the second deathstar while the emperor just overconfidently chilled
WinoCrimesand69s
Indeed, Anakin was always the chosen one, destined to bring the Sith down. He still did do that in the most dramatic anakin way possible
WinoCrimesand69s
He played a 20 year game of destruction and redemption
malachitedragon
It wasn't to bring the Sith down, it was to bring balance to the force. He did: the light side was dominant over the dark side. Was.
TerryCrews
That's a great point. Even his legendary achievement was assisted. That makes him going full hermit make more sense; he tried to love up to>
MadMupp
I mean how many times did the real MVP Han Solo save his ass or help him out
ArkoneAxon
No. Luke Skywalker does not quit. That's the point of this post. The Disney trilogy shat on the legacy of ALL the characters.
TerryCrews
the legend and couldn't. Doubt and regret made him realize that he wasn't the stories told about him, so he (wrongly) removed himself.
Imafishwithlegs
Hermit maybe, its the bitter old man that tried to kill his nephew that i dont buy
TerryCrews
I'm not a huge fan of the sequels, but any head canon that justifies them is welcome. Like Ray being the reincarnation of the emperor, and>
TerryCrews
The emporer in TLS being a clone. She was channeling the OGs power, and the clone wanted it. Not great, but easier to digest.
DrKriegersClone
It could have been if they'd shown some of what happened to change him. It's the jump from redeeming his father who had actually done 1/
DrKriegersClone
2/ terrible things to considering murdering his nephew in his sleep because he had the potential to do terrible things without any hint of
purdhapley
What are those last 3 clips from? I don’t recognize them.
Geoffron
Don't worry about it.
OxygenTheif
Mandalorian.
purdhapley
I guess I have some episodes to catch up on.
theheebs25
it's from the season 2 finale (just watched it last night) it was pretty badass, and didn't overstay it's welcome. good action
OxygenTheif
I'm about two behind, but there's been so many spoilers on here that I've practically seen half of the episodes already.
TheCaptain00
So much for usersub angels and all that noise. :c
ronlybonly
My personal rule is six months for a show/movie. Long enough for people to see it out of theaters. But here, it is 24 hours tops. >
BustedTuna
I wonder if OP has a hate-boner for the sequels.
manolyk23
Or a regular boner for no particular reason?
TerryCrews
manolyk23
OMG! It’s Terry Crews! On my comment!!
TheOnlyPtylerdactyl
Why is bitching about star wars such a big deal to people suddenly this week?
roguishdrummer
The Favreau/Filoni tag team exposed the obvious (to some) weaknesses in the sequels' development.
Cheomesh
Who?
MadMupp
Is it a hate boner if its legit criticism?
BustedTuna
I think if you can't see a good thing without immediately comparing it to the thing you hate then it is a hate-boner.
ALifeMosaicSoProsaic
Worth pointing out @OP doesn't mention the sequels at all, you did.
BustedTuna
Yep. It's entirely possible OP wasn't thinking of the sequels at all while posting this.
BustedTuna
Man, Star Wars nerds really hate when you are a reasonable human being, I guess.
PilzFarm
Wait, didn't he closed his eyes and blow up the Death Star in literally episode one of his appearance without any practice, being a farmer?
Crowlands
There's literally clips of him practicing in this post. If you mean practicing at ship combat: Luke says he's been planning on joining the -
Crowlands
- space military fairly early, and later says he's practiced hitting similar targets in a Very similar craft (T-16 Sky Hoppers are used as -
Crowlands
- a training method by X-Wing pilots.) So he's got possibly Years of training on that count.
Crowlands
And he STILL needed help, from both his mentor and his friend, because he couldn't do it alone.
Cheomesh
He was going to join the Imperial Academy.
hireling
^THIS! Now fuck off to everyone who tries to label Luke a Gary Stu.
Cheomesh
They mention he used to "bullseye" rats where he grew up, which were about the size of the exhaust port.
Crowlands
In a T-16 Skyhopper. The ship X-Wing pilots train with. 'Cause he was practicing to join the Imperial Academy.
Cheomesh
Yeah.