5P4C3M4N
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(EDIT: a lot of people seem to be arguing about this I just wanted to make an informational post on a loophole in the constitution that actaually caused a case to get thrown out because the government didn't want to acknowledge that this loophole existed I didn't mean this as anything other than an interesting informational post and the title was just clickbait) Let's imagine Daniel and Henry are vacationing in Yellowstone National Park, and set up camp in the 50 square miles of the park that are in Idaho (unlike most of the park, which is in Wyoming). They get into a fight and Daniel winds up killing Henry. But rather than bury the body and try to cover up the crime, Daniel freely admits to it and surrenders himself to the authorities.
At his trial, he invokes his right, under the Sixth Amendment, to a jury composed of people from the state where the murder was committed (Idaho) and from the federal district where it was committed. But here's the thing — the District of Wyoming has purview over all of Yellowstone, even the parts in Montana or Idaho. So Daniel has the right to a jury composed entirely of people living in both Idaho and the District of Wyoming — that is, people living in the Idaho part of Yellowstone. No one lives in the Idaho part of Yellowstone. A jury cannot be formed, and Daniel walks free.
That scenario is fiction, but all the legal maneuvers Daniel employs are completely legitimate, and someone in a similar situation could quite possibly get off scot free. That got a lot of attention when it was first pointed out by Michigan State law professor Brian Kalt in his 2005 Georgetown Law Journal article, "The Perfect Crime." After all, it implied that there was a 50 square mile "Zone of Death" of the United States where you can commit crimes with impunity, like in The Purge or something. The scenario even got featured in a best-selling mystery novel, Free Fire by CJ Box, who consulted Kalt when writing the book.
After Box's novel was released, as Kalt was working with Enzi on a potential fix, the loophole actually became a live issue for the first time. Michael Belderrain, who had illegally shot an elk in Montana in December 2005, cited Kalt's article in his own defense in July 2007. Belderrain was standing in Yellowstone when he fired the shot, and dragged the elk's head to a truck parked in Yellowstone, so he was indicted in the US District Court for the District of Wyoming. He objected that he had a right to be tried by jurors from the Montana portion of the park. That's actually somewhat possible, as the Montana part of Yellowstone is inhabited, but there are few enough residents that a trial would be difficult.
Rather than try to call such a jury or present an argument for why the Sixth Amendment did not entitle Belderrain to such a trial, the court dismissed the argument out of hand, precisely because it would imply that Yellowstone contains a Zone of Death. There were three problems with this. First, as Kalt notes, Congress implies there's a Zone of Death, not the attorney making the point in court. Second, the ruling was about Montana, in which there wouldn't be a Zone of Death even if the court accepted Belderrain's reasoning due to people living in the Montana portion of Yellowstone. Third, the court flagrantly ignored Article III of the Constitution's separate right to a trial in the state of the crime by not moving the trial to Montana. (I didn't write any of this so here's that sweet sweet sauce: https://www.vox.com/2014/5/22/5738756/you-can-kill-someone-in-a-section-of-yellowstone-and-get-away-scot https://youtu.be/-E4OqN9tJnw )
ThisIsWhyIDontTrustPeople
5P4C3M4N
It's a constitutional loophole watch the YouTube video at the bottom
Ragnacuck
This is the plot to the film Population Zero which came out in 2016...
AlexDuos
I'm surprised there's not a Day-Z type situation going on there.
FrogDelay
GO GREEN!!
clusterliver
CJ Box's Free Fire is good reading, as are his other books.
ProperSouthernGentleman
Can someone kindly hit me up with that gif of Ted Cruz saying "Excellent" because that seems appropriate here...
maelthra
1/2 The main problem with this is that the entire scenario ignores the full text of the 6th amendment. It states the jury must be formed...
maelthra
2/2 ... from the State AND district where the crime is committed. Trials are often moved to other states when a local jury can't be seated.
LilyInteger
The guys in the Stuff You Should Know podcast did an episode about this!
SoThenThisAssholeSaid
What the fuck is this mess of idiocy? It's a federal park. You get prosecuted in the federal, jury comes from the district, end of story.
dannakala
Juries have to come from the federal district AND the state in which the crime occurred. So jury has to come from Idaho and Wyoming district
SoThenThisAssholeSaid
*federal district
MelfsAcidArrow
I think they should leave it. If you go through the effort, you deserve the win.
ilikedogsandhockey
First image, I was like "Vox? Vox."
LlamaLingo
Hmm?
cthulhuandfriends
This is good to know
kaarbaak1337
Truth quotient in post : 4% Yellowstone is a national park in Wyoming, Idaho and Montana. Remainder of post is made-up nonsense.
5P4C3M4N
Watch the YouTube video on the bottom
CaptTaka
UnkindledOne
"Quite possibly get off scot free"..... "possibly"......fuck. that. shit.
MatrimBloodyCauthon
If you gotta do it...
VultureTX
already debunked with Daniel. When the federal judges ask you whether you want a jury or trial by judge, judge then moves the case to MT 1/2
VultureTX
to satisfy your right to a jury trial because the defendent REQUESTED it. this negates feds denying your rights , since you acted 2/2
relpmeraggy
As someone from Idaho. They will hold you on a different charge until they can change the law. Then trial you for murder. Guaranteed.
Teevorkio
They can't charge you with a crime using a law that was changed after you committed the crime
relpmeraggy
You know what this post reminds me of? That time Dale Gribble went to court and said he didn't recognize the yellow fringed flag of the
relpmeraggy
Navy court marshal.
relpmeraggy
Idea. Come to Idaho. Kill someone in Yellowstone. Do the thing. And we see what happens. Case closed.
Korolev787
Loopholes are not new, and when governments want to plug a loophole, believe me, they are VERY GOOD at plugging loopholes.
5P4C3M4N
They haven't yet
DildorTheWizard
For all you nice folks following through with this post, Cody is nice in the fall:)
ItsGizmo
Soooooo, a real life PVP zone?
RobJenkins
Or you could end up with 12 Davy Crockett hat warin' mofos and you just brought the feds to their door. They ain't happy.
Mumalot
As if we needed more excuses to be not-outdoorsie...
AboveAverageUsername
It's not legal, it's just possible you could get legally maneuver your way out of conviction.
5P4C3M4N
That's what I meant the title was just clickbait basically
MonsterToastie
Imgur, mass murderers; how-to
elhopaness
Older users have a mastery in lock-picking.
developmentcard
Instructions unclear. Stabbed an Idaho Potato
Renza0
I dont think Potato is the PC term these days, but I also dont think anyone really cares.
circlebreaker
Now eat it with salt, butter, and a nice chianti wine *slurping SFX*
UonlyThinkyourDead
more instructions unclear. brought sour cream, bacon bits and cheese to potato stabbing
ImlnigoMontoya
Now you can cook it in a microwave and it won't blow up.
TheNameIsEaston
Russet you off?
CthulhuDeepOne
I think you've got it!
Soolie
* sentenced to life in prison*
MyCatsaTerrorist
Convicted by a jury of your pears
Seattlite
He will have to submit his case to retrial in the court of apples.
helpusdrzaius
You, monster!
CallahansLawRefutesEntropy
I needed a laugh today. Thank you.
StrangePoster
That's a half-baked defense and you know it.
HipopopotamusTheHipHopHippo
ChristopherNixon
congrats, you turned a vox video into a text post
NoCreativity3
The last time i saw this article, the author stated that if you were to plot a crime outside of this area and commit it on there, that's 1
NoCreativity3
How they could get ya. Like, you can't just kidnap someone onto international waters and kill them.
sanedecline
You are still under your nations laws outside of the nation. People going for underage sex in other countries have been charged on return.
dannakala
If you commit your crime on a US boat, the US has jurisdiction and will try you for murder and kidnapping. International water =\= lawless
ViciousEnmoreVixen
It was an elk. I'm not so sure the judge would have made the same move for a human. I would be interested to see that play out in court...
cogs
Or it's charged as a federal crime (as it took place on federal land) and your argument is moot.
dannakala
It's Yellowstone, so you could only be tried as a federal crime. Law says jurors have to come from the state and federal district. So (1)
dannakala
Jurors need to come from Idaho (state) and the Wyoming federal district. That includes 0 people so no jury
vayrun
If you study caselaw at all for any subject you learn that judges can get very creative to enforce the spirit of the law of the letter.
dannakala
Oh no doubt. It's more of a curiosity than a practical thing that the letter of the law allows for this situation
Kailhun
Article III only says that trials of crimes must be by jury and held in the state where the crime was committed./
Kailhun
Doesn't say anything about where the members should come from, live etc. /end
5P4C3M4N
The video at the bottom explains it better
dannakala
You're right, it's the 6th amendment (as OP correctly said). But they also violated section iii by not having the trial in Wyoming
evilspock
Reminds me of "sovereign citizens". Sounds like it might work, fails miserably in practice. Don't shoot people, anywhere.
MyCatsaTerrorist
Except in the head. I'm told that is surprisingly effective
originalWFHhipster
Yup, sovereign citizens are idiots. Feel bad for their kids that don't legally exist- no birth records, etc.
evilspock
You'd be pointing at quirky legal loopholes sitting in prison cells trying to appeal your conviction.
WardSharlow
If you crossed a state line in order to commit a crime, that's probably some federal shit that doesn't care about this nonsense.
5P4C3M4N
The constitution?
AlmightyDylon
Yes but if I member right, if you leave a state with the intent to commit the crime that state can get you on charges as well. 1/2
AlmightyDylon
If I left IL and went to WI with the purpose of murder, IL can charge me for conspiracy
ThisNameIsMaybeTaken
As in a separate violation of Federal law that has jurisdiction everywhere, so easy jury.
dannakala
Yes, the law professor who initially came up with this said that you could be tried for conspiracy in other states if you did planning/prep
tygerpsimatrix
Last time it popped up; they'd just import a jury of people from 'neighbouring' states or it would still be a federal crime.
5P4C3M4N
That would be against the constitution
RedIronCrown
Not sure why you're getting downvoted for an accurate statement.
SleeperXib
I notice that happens a lot around these parts.
36roentgen
It's Imgur, half the people here don't like the truth if it's against what they believe.
Himser
half the people don't live in the USA... so what constitution are you talking about?
1metalnation
Yeah, but they don't actually have a leg to stand on, that "sovereign citizen" nonsense came from someone misreading a law
AMacGyver
I thought it came from the Articles of Confederation, which were rendered void upon the adoption of the Constitution.
ThatsNotMyPenisPump
From the ones I've seen they've all been driving related and when questioned they would state that they're a free inhabitant under the 1/2
ThatsNotMyPenisPump
2/2 Articles of Confederation which were essentially replaced by the Constitution. Idiots. Idiots everywhere.
BigBlueBurd
It's also people claiming that when a flag has a gold or silver adornment, it's not a proper flag but a naval ensign.
AMacGyver
So many idiots.
deathbymonkeys
Like that dude who defended himself saying over and over "I am the living man" judge was stupid and let him walk
sunionbroman
Not True - The Feds can investigate and prosecute murders as missing person cases.
dannakala
What are you talking about? The feds prosecute murder as murder. Title 18 ch. 51. Natl Park is exclusive fed jurisdiction
sunionbroman
They have jurisdiction and prosecute murder of federal employees, but as far as I have read murder in & of itself isn't a federal offense.
sunionbroman
They have jurisdiction and prosecute murder of federal employees, but as far as I have read murder in & of itself isn't a federal offense.
dannakala
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1111
dannakala
Unabomber was convicted of 3 counts of murder in federal court for killing non-fed people (e.g. computer store owner).
Demegilio
But who said the person was missing? In the scenario the guy did not hide the body and freely turned himself in.
sunionbroman
Land not claimed by a state/jurisdiction is Federal land so they *could* go after a murderer - but technically murder isn't a Federal crime.
ArchCypher
But the land *is* claimed, no? It's just uninhabited.
SammyFletcher
It is claimed by the US government. National parks/forests/grasslands are generally either federal land or a coalition of federal and public
Demegilio
Sounds legit. Have my upvote.
dannakala
He's bullshitting. Murder is a federal crime. If you kill on federal property, the feds will prosecute you for murder, not "missing persons"
5P4C3M4N
Who can you prosecute for a person going missing?
Cmycherrytree
Is that the whole "no body, no crime thing?"
5P4C3M4N
not what I was going for with that...
sunionbroman
If they think you commited a Federal Offense, like kidnapping, they can investigate and charge murder on top. I'm not sure if murder (1/2?)
sunionbroman
/2) itself is enough for Feds to get involved (another user seems to think so), but either way once the can prosecute they more than (2/3)
sunionbroman
3) likely would and use a special jury, probably from the closest county in the State where it happened. Feds can transfer trials to states.
popejubal
If they find a dead body, then I think that's no longer missing, right? Show them the body and then it's "just" murder.
sunionbroman
Technically murder isn't a Federal crime. But land not claimed by a state/jurisdiction is Federal land so they *could* investigate it.
popejubal
(and it IS a state crime in every state, so the state can prosecute, but then you have a potential problem with jurisdiction, etc.)
popejubal
They could investigate it, but if it isn't a crime, then they can't prosecute it. Can't have criminal prosecution for something not a crime
dannakala
You're nuts if you think murder isn't a federal crime. Title 18 section 51 of federal criminal code is entitled "Homicide"
sunionbroman
P.s. Fuck off with the "you're nuts" BS, I'm just not a lawyer. I'm arguing someone COULD be prosecuted by the feds.
dannakala
You don't have to be a lawyer to know that the feds try people for murder. Also don't get mad if you spread false info and get called out
sunionbroman
Everything I've read said for the feds to get involved it needs to be coupled with a federal crime. T18s51 covers civilian homicide?
dannakala
Civilian homicide is a federal crime if the feds have jurisdiction over it. So if you do things like commit the crime on federal property...
popejubal
(And I'm not saying that he can't be prosecuted - just that the federal government can't prosecute what isn't a federal crime)
dannakala
Murder is a federal crime.