Debunking myths about Fighter jets and Air Combat

Oct 30, 2016 11:55 AM

DeathStarWasAnInsideJob

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G'day Imgur, in today's post I'll be doing some mythsbusting on the topic of Fighter aircraft and Air Combat. Settle down and get comfortable cuz this post is a little long.

Myth No.1: Afterburner will get you to top speed and outrun everything

Lots of people believe that a fighter jet on full afterburner can fly at their max speed for a while and run away from any threat. Afterburners are actually extremely fuel thirsty, and very few planes can fly at their Max speed for more than a few minutes. Planes have extra thrust/engine power to carry more payload and climb higher, but not to fly faster. Most Fighter Jet’s top speeds are not limited by engine thrust. For example, an F-15C Eagle’s max speed is about Mach 2.4/2800 km/h, but it can only maintain that speed for two minutes before the engine intakes and the engine fan blades begins overheating or becomes stressed out.

F-22s and F-16s are unable to maintain their top speed for more than 3-4 minutes for the same reason, the friction generated at Mach 2 can deform and eventually melt the cockpit canopy.

What are Fighter jet canopy made from? Mostly PolyMethyl Acrylite, or Polycarbonate, they’re basically very strong acrylic glass.

Fuel consumption for a Jet with afterburners is also shocking. This is an F-16C, it’s powered by a GE F-110 engine that generates nearly 30,000 pounds/14 tons of thrust, it also burns 250-300 kilos of fuel per minute at 10,000 ft (Max throttle with afterburners). So an F-16C will run of fuel in less than 9 minutes at full power.

Myth No.2: Planes can scramble immediately in emergencies.

Here’s a rubbish trope seen in every movie. Our band of brave badasses need to escape quickly or stop the bad guys. They jump on a helicopter/fighter jet/nuclear powered UFO, flicks a shitload of switches, and within a minute or so they’re flying.

In reality the fastest time a military plane can ‘scramble’ to takeoff is 10-15 minutes after the alarms start screaming.

During the Cold War Paranoias of the 50’s, the U.S Air Force became obsessed with ‘operational readiness’. They wanted to be sure that American planes can nuke the Russians before the Reds can nuke American airbases. Bombers were kept on 24-7 alert, ready to fry Communists with the power of the Atom bomb, Fighters were kept on 24-7 alert ready to stop the Russians from frying Americans. It was a security nightmare. Bombers and Fighters, fully loaded with fuel and armament (sometimes nuclear bombs) sat outside their hangers, and mechanics slept underneath the plane or inside the hanger.

Even with such extreme measures, Bombers could only take off after 20 minutes, Fighter jets sometimes did leave the ground 10 minutes after receiving notice. During 9/11, F-15s directed to stop the hijacked planes, took 11 minutes to be armed and piloted, and 7 minutes to take off. (Some sources say they could have taken as little as 8 minutes)

Myths 3. Dogfights between planes involves spraying bullets.

First thing first, I’m not saying that fighter jets never use gun/cannons on each-other. When the U.S introduced the F-4B Phantom, a fighter without a cannon, into the Vietnam War, it lost badly in close ranges. However, the clear majority of air combat after the 1950s are done from very long range. Missiles like the America AIM-120 and the Chinese PL-10 can hit targets from 100km away, ramjet missiles like the British Meteor aim to push their range to 150+km. Even ‘short’ ranged air to air missiles like the Sidewinder and the ASRAAM can travel 20-40km. If two squadrons of Fighter aircraft meet, chances are that one side will back off before they can visually contact each other.

An F/A-18's Gatling cannon and 570 rounds of 20mm ammo

Fighter planes also carry very little ammo for their gun. F-15Cs carry eight missiles each and 600 rounds of ammo, but keep in mind the M61 cannon fires at 6000 rpm, a F-15 will run out of ammo after 7 seconds of firing. The ammo capacity on the new F-35 is even more pathetic, a F-35 will expend all of her 180 25mm shells in less than four seconds.

Myths. 3: Stealth=Radar invisibility.

There are two types of Stealth technology, first is shaping the Airplane to deflect radar waves (Which is why the F-22 and B-2 looks so smooth and rounded) second is using radar-absorbing paint or fibre to cover the aircraft. Most stealth planes use both techniques. However both techniques can be bypassed by VLF radar or Infrared detection.

A Chinese JY-26 VLF radar

While Stealth aircraft are hard to shoot down and are valuable as weapons, they’re not invisible. High frequency radar (We’re talking about the wavelength of the radio wave here) can detect even F-22 and B-2s, but they can’t track or produce a targeting solution accurate enough to fire a missile at it. Modern Infrared heat seeker missiles or Infrared sensors can also lock onto stealth aircrafts from 60-100km away. If a AIM-9X missile can lock onto a cigarette, it will lock onto any jet engine.

Myths 4. Dogfights will end up with two dudes trying to outturn each other.

According to badass test pilot Lt. Col. "Spanky" Clifton (Who has flown America, European and Soviet jets) he says that turn too much during a dogfight and you’ll kill yourself. The reason is simple, aggressive turning cause aircraft to lose speed. Once you’re slow, the enemy will put some distance between him and you then aim at you comfortably, next thing you know you’re chewed up by cannon fire and short range missiles.

So what is Col. Clifton’s advice on dogfights? ‘Keep the airspeed up’ Do a combination of vertical and horizontal maneuvers and try to kill the other guy before he starts dogfighting with you.

Myth 5: Fancy fighter jets are pointless! Long range air combat is overrated!

(I've heard a lot about this one when people criticize the F-35, it's a bad airplane sure, but it's not bad because of it's long-range combat abilities.)

It’s well known that, despite the invention of long range missiles, dogfights are still relevant, so why build fancy, expensive jets that struggle in close range? Well, large, complex aircrafts can carry bigger radar and more long ranged missile, they can inflict heavy losses before dogfighting. Even ‘big’ F-15s or Su-27s are still reasonably agile and can be a challenge to take down for small fighter like the F-16, Gripen or

A chart demonstrating the range of various Russian missiles

Long range missiles were at their infancy and struggled to be useful during the Vietnam War, but by the 90’s they were so good that 66$ of AIM-7 and AIM-120 missiles that were fired resulted in a kill. During the Gulf War, the Iraqis and American planes never got within 20 miles of eachother during air combat

Things didn't end well for Iraqi pilots.

A sweet photo of F-14s waiting to be refueled by KC-10

Thanks for reading!

This article was a bit sloppy! I hope you enjoyed it anyway and learnt something, be sure to read my other posts.

My A-10 post: https://imgur.com/gallery/y08jM
The F-35 and what went wrong: https://imgur.com/gallery/jVVUZ
History of Fighter planes and air combat: https://imgur.com/gallery/kjdyf
The Su-27 Flanker: https://imgur.com/gallery/mF67K
The FW-190: https://imgur.com/gallery/gQqxU

Hangar. It is spelled hangar.

10 years ago | Likes 5 Dislikes 0

"The F-35 is a bad jet, sure" 1. You've never flown one 2. You'll never fly one 3. It's brand new, barely in service and unproven

10 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

And the ones that do fly it, loves it

8 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

My best friend is a Lt and he’s told me a few things about the capabilities of his jet (F-35) that make all others seem like WW1 planes

8 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

I'll remind the guys sitting Alert 5 that they can't actually launch for 10-15 minutes.

10 years ago | Likes 5 Dislikes 0

I still think the F16 is the best looking fighter jet ever designed.

10 years ago | Likes 4 Dislikes 0

10 minutes? What about alert 5 on an aircraft carrier?

10 years ago | Likes 4 Dislikes 0

There's a lot of cobblers sprinkled in here to salt the 'facts'.

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

The bit about dogfighting is a non-sequitur. A guy saying "don't get into a dogfight" doesn't = most dogfights aren't "who can turn faster"

10 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 0

for myth 2... iirc, the first planes up during 9/11 were not armed and they had planned to ram into jets if needed

10 years ago | Likes 7 Dislikes 0

Yeah bout those were already in the air by coincidence. The F-15s were ordered to scramble after the first plane crashed into the tower

10 years ago | Likes 7 Dislikes 1

US Army Blackhawks were also shot down, during the gulf war, by US Air Force jets because they didn't get close enough to identify them.

10 years ago | Likes 11 Dislikes 1

Black Hawk Down :<

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 2

and not squawking correctly, so airborne and ground radars couldn't immediately identify them as friendlies.

10 years ago | Likes 5 Dislikes 0

True. Lessons learned on both sides.

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

Concerning Myth 5, an unarmed EF-111 was credited with an A2A kill by maneuvering an Iraqi jet into the ground.

10 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 0

The Cold War was crazy. My dad patrolled Alaska in an F-111 with tactical nukes in his payload.

10 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 0

Well done. Only critique, is that "alert status" jets are able to be wheels up in less than 9 minutes. They're always prepped to roll out.

10 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 0

You commented on VLF radar, the you mentioned high frequency in the same paragraph. Unless I'm mistaken, I think VLF is Very Low Frequency.

10 years ago | Likes 9 Dislikes 1

Well technically it's higher than ULF sooo... but your right HF is 3-30mhz which is not really near the frequency of VLF.

10 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

Yes, in the context that the usual high frequency radars (I'm talking 2-20 GHz) are jammed by the stealth properties of the plane.

10 years ago | Likes 4 Dislikes 0

A good thing to think about when it comes to air combat is this; Speed is life. Altitude is life insurance.

10 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 0

Where I work we sit under the practice area for an airbase, building regularly gets buzzed by a tanker and fighters. Awesome to watch.

10 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 0

Code Name: ASRAAM

10 years ago | Likes 6 Dislikes 0

Better: Joint Air-To-Surface Standoff Missle. JASSM.

10 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 0

Advanced Short Range Air-toAir Missile, but yeah we joke about that too.

10 years ago | Likes 4 Dislikes 0

Also the name of a bad German porno...

10 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 0

probably.

10 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

As an F-22 pilot, correction-canopies restrict speed at lower altitudes (air friction). I've had the F-22 supersonic 5+ minutes above 50k

10 years ago | Likes 5 Dislikes 0

F-22 Work Stories pls haha

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

Haha...I could tell you but---- (you know how this story ends)

9 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

There's bits of info here mixed with tons of bullshit

10 years ago | Likes 9 Dislikes 2

Please note which bits are bull.

10 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 0

I'd say all points have their problems, No 5. seems to be the closest to truth. I'll address some points in replies

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

1. AB gets you to max speed, that's the purpose, top speed is usually limited by drag, mach 2 structural limit is only possible clean config

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

2. QRA planes have different readiness, unpowered jet might take 10 minutes but it'll only take 1 if plane is idling in hangar pilot inside

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

3. Semantics, dogfight implies WVR, guns still aren't used much tho. Phantoms lost due to bad initial tactics, not lack of cannon

10 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

Gunfighting was more of a WW2 era thing

10 years ago | Likes 8 Dislikes 3

And Korea, plus Vietnam to some extent. It's dead now though.

10 years ago | Likes 5 Dislikes 0

I just said WW2 because it's fewer characters than "propeller driven aircraft"

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 1

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10 years ago (deleted Jan 17, 2017 1:58 AM) | Likes 0 Dislikes 0

well, with more sensor and guidance systems, wouldn't that still be the case? You're just doing it off screens instead of by your eyes/ears

10 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 1

Back in the good old days where you didn't have to worry about getting shot down by telephone pole-sized missiles traveling at Mach 7+

10 years ago | Likes 8 Dislikes 0

dodge a SAM, then rethink your previous statement.

10 years ago | Likes 4 Dislikes 0

Man you should say that to an air force pilot veteran IRL. I wanna see what happens.

10 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 0

Well, today it's more about good judgement and good decisionmaking

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

Not raw reflex

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

I didn't realize there was mass confusion on this

10 years ago | Likes 105 Dislikes 8

Weapons of Mass Confusion? Best get ready to invade

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

Hollywood aviation screwups are so hard to watch, and would be so easy to avoid.

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

Oh no it's just some myths I found on the internet

10 years ago | Likes 33 Dislikes 3

Aye as others have said, youve posted some incorrect information yourself, only moving the myths around rather than correcting :/

10 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

As a joint forces weapons evaluator programmer, even the "correct" information you think you have is incorrect.

10 years ago | Likes 11 Dislikes 0

Can you specify please? I tried to use trustworthy websites(AusAirPower, AustralianDoD, Jalopnik etc

10 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

No nation puts out their true numbers. You did good. I shouldn't have said anything.

10 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 0

Nah man you have a good point, lots of this stuff is also quite subjective and dependent on combat conditions etc

10 years ago | Likes 4 Dislikes 1

Not bad. Some of the info is wrong, but not bad. Civilians who dont know any better will think this is great.

10 years ago | Likes 58 Dislikes 7

Worth saying (since he was on the topic), the SPC and FF is so low at altitude (FL400+) that you can maintain max AB for a long time.

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

Confirmed. As a career civilian with over 30 years not in the service, I don't know any better and think this is great.

10 years ago | Likes 108 Dislikes 1

Its just in the details. Also working on fighter jets for 17 years, you find stuff. I cant watch plane movies (Top Gun) without ripping them

10 years ago | Likes 7 Dislikes 0

Will you enlist when you retire as a civilian? In the army you get a Purple Heart when wounded in combat, civilians get divorce papers.

10 years ago | Likes 10 Dislikes 0

F-15C weapons troop here, the gun holds ~950 rnds. 600 is closer to E model capacity.

10 years ago | Likes 4 Dislikes 0

Wow, how much did the A version carry? I though the C had less ammo to make space for avionics

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

Interesting choice that. Especially in the context of the A-10 gun debate relating to CAS

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

Big myth is the F-4 cannon thing. Top Gun school was at the same time as the cannon upgrade. Pilots that went to Top Gun but didn't get a 1/

10 years ago | Likes 4 Dislikes 1

2/ cannon installed did very well. Pilots that got a cannon-equipped jet but didn't go to school did poorly. The gun made little difference.

10 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 0

1/Yup that combined with a system called combat tree resulting in a Higher K/D for the non cannon equipped Navy F-4s when compared to their

10 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

Airforce counter parts and more kills overall

10 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

Please enlighten us. Most of us are civilians, after all. This subject matter is extremely interesting and we want to know more.

10 years ago | Likes 17 Dislikes 0

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10 years ago (deleted Oct 20, 2021 8:52 PM) | Likes 0 Dislikes 0

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10 years ago (deleted Oct 20, 2021 8:52 PM) | Likes 0 Dislikes 0

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10 years ago (deleted Oct 20, 2021 8:52 PM) | Likes 0 Dislikes 0

The F-16 in the picture has a Pratt & Whittney engine NOT a GE. PW is ~30,000lbs of thrust. GE's produce ~33,000lbs of thrust.

10 years ago | Likes 21 Dislikes 1

I thought some F-16's had GE depending on their block number?

10 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 0

If it ends in a 0 it is a GE and a 2 PW (30/32, 40/42, 50/52). Earlier 1-25 were always PW.

10 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

They do, but you can tell what kind of engine it is by the shape of the intake on a jet. This is a "small mouth"= PW.

10 years ago | Likes 4 Dislikes 0

Jets being scrambled can take as little as 5 minutes from the alarm.

10 years ago | Likes 23 Dislikes 0

Can confirm F18's take 10-15

10 years ago | Likes 5 Dislikes 0

There used to be a big button on the nose gear of the B-1 that would start up everything in 3-4 min. Source: worked in B-1 squadron.

10 years ago | Likes 14 Dislikes 0

Yup. I work F-16's from alarm to taxi for us can be <5 minutes.

10 years ago | Likes 11 Dislikes 0

Its just some of it is out of context. Afterburners do provide more speed (thats what they are there for)...

10 years ago | Likes 23 Dislikes 1

Thanks! Awesome.

10 years ago | Likes 7 Dislikes 0

huh? what I got out of it was "you can't use it for more than a couple minutes or you'll kill the plane"

10 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

Kinda. A. you'll run out of fuel QUICKLY, B. Eng exhaust temps can cause a burn through if held too long.

10 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 1

well the point is that he did say it WILL get you to top speed. Most of the post was just devoted to how that WASN'T a good idea

10 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

I don't think it was unclear that they provide more speed. What was interesting to me, was that the plane's chassis can't withstand thespeed

10 years ago | Likes 5 Dislikes 1

The airframes will hold up, but the engines themselves wont. Dumping straight JP8 into the exhaust (AB) will produce tremendous heat.

10 years ago | Likes 8 Dislikes 0

Well the way Op wrote/copied, he said "but not to fly faster." Thats exactly what the AB is for. But yes, there is a Max speed.

10 years ago | Likes 6 Dislikes 1

I think he meant "it's not for flying faster for a prolonged amount of time", or that's what I got out of it at least

10 years ago | Likes 5 Dislikes 2

For instance, mach 2.4 is 2962 kph

10 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 2

Mach 2.4 is not a velocity. It is only associated with a single velocity at a specific density.

10 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 0

(Which is why cryogenic and pressurized wind tunnels exist. Princeton has a wind tunnel that can pressurize to 400atm pressure)

10 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 0

I understand these words. Individually.

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

A 200 m/s flow over a 10 cm wing is very different than a 10 m wing. But if the small one is at 100 atm pressure, they're the same.

10 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

Mach 2.4 is a huge range of speeds.

10 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 0

True, but still nowhere near 1800 even at maximum altitude.

10 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 1

This post got in my OODA loop

10 years ago | Likes 16 Dislikes 1

Underrated comment

10 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

I try

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

I was deployed with F-15Es to Kuwait in '02 and we scrambled alert jets ~7 minutes almost every day. The pilot/WSO would jump in, (1)

10 years ago | Likes 5 Dislikes 0

fire the engines, run AFCS and radar BITs, and taxi. By the time they took off the target pod and ICMS were timed in and ready to work.

10 years ago | Likes 4 Dislikes 0

Regarding the F-35 comment "it's a bad aircraft sure" What exactly is bad about it other than cost? It's an extremely capable aircraft.

10 years ago | Likes 13 Dislikes 1

Because to utilize the stealth you can't have much payload, so full armament makes it on par with an F-16 in terms of overall usefulness.

10 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 0

The point is you don't use external stores until DEAD and OCA have destroyed the threats. You have a stealth option that the Viper doesn't.

10 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

I wrote a post explaining why it's troubled. Basically the VTOL and the regular versions have conflicting design requirements

10 years ago | Likes 4 Dislikes 2

Sure, but name one aircraft ever made that doesn't have conflicting design requirements.

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

F-15, AIR SUPREMACY A-10 CLOSE SUPPORT MiG-25 INTERCEPTION

10 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

I'm talking about design a plane to optimise towards just one role

10 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

Yeah, when you can get it in the air. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3586220

10 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 1

Considering that F-35s this early in service get better flight readiness than any of the teen series its in the air quite alot.

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

You know anything about the Daily Mail?

10 years ago | Likes 4 Dislikes 0

Cost aint that bad either. 90 or 85 mill a pop compared to a non-flyaway 75mill for a new superhornet or F-16blk60 sounds like a bargain.

10 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 4

Yep, and when you factor in how expensive legacy airframes can be, it can make a lot of financial sense after the initial outlay.

10 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 2

F-35 isnt 85 mil yet (F-35C is $116 million without the engine). Navy pays around 52 million per superhornet.

10 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 1

We are experincing a 4-6% decrease in price year to year by 2018 it will be 85 mill for the A model.

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

Also the F-18 cost in FY15 is 72 million without pods or tanks.

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

Unit Cost: $57 million according to the navy http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=1100&tid=1200&ct=1

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

Not to mention Superhornets are around $18,000 per flight hour compared to $42,000 for F-35A.

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 1

The Navy and Airforce calculate the CPFH in vastly diffrent ways with the Airforce taking more things into account just FYI

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

When things are put into an even breakdown so that we arnt comparing apples to oranges the F-35 is around 21K per hour.

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

Well you're comparing apples to oranges in the first place. Pretty sure the 85 million is for the F-35A.

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

And from what I can find that 21k is just an estimate and not yet achieved.

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

Its also important to point out that new tech such as "Fibermat" on the F-35 allows it to be stealthy even in the VLF and VHF bands

10 years ago | Likes 7 Dislikes 1

Fibremats are not stealthy against VLF, but they are easy to maintains. avoiding VLF mainly has to do with the shaping of the aircrafts

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

While also making the F-35 and estimated two orders of magnitude "stealthier" than the F-22 .

10 years ago | Likes 6 Dislikes 0

If the f-35 ever has to go heat to guns, everything before that point has been royally fucked up.

10 years ago | Likes 80 Dislikes 1

Warning shots?

10 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 8

Modern military aircraft have an IDing device that indicates whether the unidentified plane is friend or foe before engagement.

10 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 0

That is not a thing in the air force. Gun shots are taken around the 0.5-1.0 mile range. If you're that close, you're fighting.

10 years ago | Likes 10 Dislikes 0

Visual ID?

10 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

IFF, radar id, and AWACS will take care of identification for engaging.

10 years ago | Likes 5 Dislikes 0

Also, a traditional dog fight IS a turn circle battle. The block 50 f-16 can accelerate in a 9g turn. They will never run out of energy.

10 years ago | Likes 24 Dislikes 1

At what height?

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

This was at around 5000, turned vertical in excess of 500kts, pulled power and topped out somewhere above 30,000ft

10 years ago | Likes 4 Dislikes 0

2.) we have. We're on 4th gen SCTBs and 3rd gen TBCs. That means we can generate a hell of a lot more power out of the same engine envelope

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

By traditional you mean ww1 right? Still a valid point though. +1

10 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

And also if the other guy overshoots isnt that what you want?

10 years ago | Likes 5 Dislikes 0

Yes

10 years ago | Likes 4 Dislikes 0

certain aircraft should never engage in a dog fight like the F22/F35, others like the F16, Euro-Typhoon , Su37 excel in that role

10 years ago | Likes 14 Dislikes 0

F22 can hold it's own in a dogfight. 2 words. Thrust. Vectoring.

10 years ago | Likes 18 Dislikes 1

Those F-119's are scary sons of bitches

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

As a PW-F100 maintainer, I WISH I worked on them.

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

Red flag event in alaska the F22 vs typhoon they noticed that compared to the typhoon the F22 couldn't accelerate fast enough

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

Out of the turn and bled speed and that's how the eurofighter won some engagements, she's not a turn fighter.

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

BTW doesn't a lot of aircrafts have active trust vectoring now?

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

no

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

That's for hyper maneuverability, not sure how well it does in energy retention.

10 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 0

When you've got a 2:1 thrust to weight ratio acceleration will save you every time.

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

That's the whole point of it. Tighter turning while maintaining speed. A normal jet needs to shed speed for tighter turning. Not the F22.

10 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 0

I'm no expert on the topic so there could be mistake, just a guy who spent too many hours going through books or aviation related websites.

10 years ago | Likes 20 Dislikes 8

1+ For awesomeness

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 1

I'm not an expert either but my flat mate is in the british RAF and he was saying that typhoons can be scrambled and reach London in 6mins

10 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 0

Once had a chance to talk to the Florida "on-standby" crew. On high alert just in case enemy planes come in US air space. Very cool guys.

10 years ago | Likes 5 Dislikes 1

I've launched F15out in alert status under 5 min. Jets on alert are preset with all but a few switches set and minimal safing gear installed

10 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

Gotta say I thought it was a great read until I had my dad fact check em. He's a F-16 pilot and says most of the info here is way off. (1/2)

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

Especially the dogfighting and the canopy melting sections. (2/2)

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

I can tell you're not an expert. Some of these are blatantly wrong.

10 years ago | Likes 10 Dislikes 2

For quick take offs, you put the airplanes on highest alert. That means they are standing ready / turned on with pilots in them. ^^

10 years ago | Likes 11 Dislikes 1

My Dad did exactly that during the Cold War in West Germany in 80s. He says that sitting in his F-16 on nuke alert was the creepiest thing.

10 years ago | Likes 9 Dislikes 0

I bet it must have been. Can't even imagine what it would be like. Source for my statment: I was in the Air Force (not a pilot). ^^

10 years ago | Likes 5 Dislikes 1

Why would you need to provide a src to "I bet it must have been. Can't even imagine what it would be like" Show-off? but not a pilot, so...

10 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 1

The source was for my earlier statement..

10 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 1

OP sounds like me back when I nerded the hell out of military history. Nice to meet a fellow buff.

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

one that i noticed is that "high frequency" and "radio wave" do not go together. VLF probably even stands for "very low frequency."

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 1

Well what about the most controversial issue of our times? Can jet fuel melt steel beams?!

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

The last one about the gulf war is factually incorrect. Most of these are at least partially wrong as well.

10 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 1

2/2 since the Jaguar was so old, slow and shit it didn't stand a chance in conventional combat

10 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 0

RAF piloting Jaguars were trained to drop to very low altitude to avoid being shot down... 1/2

10 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 0

One note about 9/11, not all the fighters were armed. My buddy's dad took off with the knowledge he might have to ram a hijacked plane. 1/2

10 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 0

Said it was the most difficult mission he ever flew because of that knowledge but they needed planes in the air ASAP 2/2

10 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

do you know about "Operation Chrome Dome" ?

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

But you've not clarified if the pattern is full for Ghostrider.

10 years ago | Likes 153 Dislikes 3

And if you screw up just this much, you'll be flying a cargo plane full of rubber dog shit out of Hong Kong!

10 years ago | Likes 25 Dislikes 0

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10 years ago (deleted Apr 19, 2017 5:02 AM) | Likes 0 Dislikes 0

Negative Ghostrider, the pattern is full

10 years ago | Likes 13 Dislikes 0

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10 years ago (deleted Apr 19, 2017 5:02 AM) | Likes 0 Dislikes 0

Sorry Goose, but it's time to buzz the tower

10 years ago | Likes 8 Dislikes 0

I think that covers flybys

10 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

Does it matter?

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 7

I bet you're a hoot at parties.

10 years ago | Likes 5 Dislikes 1

yes

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

Great read! Correction on myth 2. I worked combat alert for a couple of years and we routinely launched F-15s in 4 min, usually 1/2

10 years ago | Likes 183 Dislikes 3

I think the boys and gals from CFB Cold Lake on Arctic Bear Bomber alert like to put #2 to the test as well.

10 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

heard the same from my dad, the fighters had few minutes to be in air especially those close to the borders

10 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

Agreed. I hear them get called out and go up in 4min. Again on alert status though.

10 years ago | Likes 5 Dislikes 2

MiG-21s (at least those in Yugoslav services) could get up in the air in three. If the pilots are on standby near the jets (as you do)-- 1/2

10 years ago | Likes 4 Dislikes 0

They'd literally need a minute and a half to start the electronics, spool the engine, stabilize the HSI and start taxiing to the runway. 2/2

10 years ago | Likes 4 Dislikes 0

Was about to comment the same,at a deployed base alert birds average 3-5 mins to be in air and sprinting at a target.

10 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

And now you're sitting here browsing Imgur

10 years ago | Likes 4 Dislikes 2

Yeah, I think it all depends at what combat readiness state forces are already in when they need to scramble.

10 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

And dont forget about the bombbers - they flew constantly, in case of... (relieved from station after a while by next o.c.)

9 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

My job is to control US alert fighter jets to intercept threats and it's possible to be up sooner but it honestly depends. What base?

10 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

Elmo

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

2/2 they would be wheels up in under 3. Granted they were sitting "alert status", but that is a huge part of the fighter mission.

10 years ago | Likes 131 Dislikes 2

I was going to say, pretty sure I read the woman who was on the suicide mission to take down the airline on 9/11 was in the air in 4 mins.

10 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 1

What woman? Care to elaborate?

10 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

There were two reserve pilots sent up to intercept the last plane, no weapons. They were rushed to get into the air. It was a suicide trip.

10 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 0

I concur. In the Navy we had the "Alert 5" sitting on the deck, ready to go as required. Wheels up time was supposed to be under 5 minutes.

10 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

Third'd? I've seen them ready and airborne in 5 mins.

10 years ago | Likes 6 Dislikes 0

hate to be that guy, but opsec? We were told not to talk about readiness

10 years ago | Likes 16 Dislikes 7

Good initiative, bad judgment. It's not like they were talking about specific whos, whats, wheres, etc.

10 years ago | Likes 14 Dislikes 3

This kind of stuff is okay, being as this is actually common knowledge if you do your research properly.

10 years ago | Likes 27 Dislikes 1

Just because it's on Wikipedia doesn't mean it's unclassified.

10 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 4

Not to mention that it is concerning the F-15, which isn't uesd nearly as much anymore.

10 years ago | Likes 13 Dislikes 1

I appreciate you looking out for security but this is information that has been posted on CNN. As long as we did not talk about 1/2

10 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

2/2 the number of aircraft on "status" and specifics such as times for practice launches this is fine.

10 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

I'll 2nd that. Spent many, many nights on the flight line in a full R11 to top off a/c sitting in alert position. Coolest moment of my /1

10 years ago | Likes 41 Dislikes 0

Career was quickly launching two KC135s to Libya during an ORI. (Obvi not ME launching, but was part of a team).

10 years ago | Likes 31 Dislikes 0

What's an ORI?

10 years ago | Likes 12 Dislikes 0

Type of inspection. I think they might have changed the name.

10 years ago | Likes 10 Dislikes 0

Operational readiness inspection

10 years ago | Likes 10 Dislikes 0

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10 years ago (deleted Aug 26, 2021 3:24 PM) | Likes 0 Dislikes 0

It lasted until after Desert Storm.

10 years ago | Likes 5 Dislikes 0

Worked at whiteman afb. Can confirm, we always had a B2 on standby. Also later versions of the f4 phantom did include a cannon.

10 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 1

Accurate

10 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 1

Myth 6: In the movies the pilots dodge/ dogfight missiles for ages. Actually Many missiles flight time is less than a min. burn even less

10 years ago | Likes 13 Dislikes 0

many SRM's have proximity fuzes and detonate after fuel is spent.

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

Yep, Missiles easily go over Mach 4, very little time do dodge it

10 years ago | Likes 10 Dislikes 1

What about decoys, can they trick missiles well?

10 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

depends on the missile and chaff or flare tech and pilots timing. quite a bad success rate I think.

10 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 1

Ah, good old "Behind Enemy Lines"

10 years ago | Likes 4 Dislikes 0

I was thinking of exactly that movie

10 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

I'd also REALLY like to know where they got the idea for that missile's warhead. Some kind of shotgun thing AND impact?

10 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 0

also I think he used the jettison fueltank button for firing missiles

10 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

The pilot did jett the tanks. Issue there is JP-8 doesn't combust like that.

10 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

That's very real. Some missiles have a bunch of steal rods or flechettes.

10 years ago | Likes 4 Dislikes 1

Ok, I will add this to my favorites and also I need an F/A-18's Gatling cannon and 570 rounds of 20mm ammo for my car.

10 years ago | Likes 426 Dislikes 5

I need that for my aunt Linda's ass

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

Consider the recoil for a minute. I bet you could sell tickets for a ride. :)

10 years ago | Likes 11 Dislikes 0

I will take your mom for a ride for free.

10 years ago | Likes 8 Dislikes 2

She might like that!

10 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 0

10 years ago | Likes 8 Dislikes 0

@howtogoincirclesveryfast.

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

You get more horsepower out of that gun's recoil than a Ferrari...

10 years ago | Likes 285 Dislikes 1

Point it at that tailgating car; win-win situation

10 years ago | Likes 148 Dislikes 0

That Ferrari was probably just another dictator in the wall

10 years ago | Likes 16 Dislikes 1

You mean thurst....and what if it had more than one minigun? Could it actually slow/stop the plane mid flight?

10 years ago | Likes 4 Dislikes 0

The A-10 Warthog has two jet engines capable of up to 2 tons of thrust each. The GAU-8, the gun on it, generates 5 tons while firing.

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

So, yes, yes it does happen in some cases. The Ju-87 Stuka also dipped in heading when firing its two 37-mm cannons. (One possible config)

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

Some heavily armed WW2 planes could actually stall if you shot long burst with all cannons while climbing or in low energy state.

10 years ago | Likes 4 Dislikes 0

you want the real vroom? Soviet GSh-6-30

10 years ago | Likes 6 Dislikes 0

I prefer the GAU-8 Avenger

10 years ago | Likes 5 Dislikes 1

That' OK, but the GSh-6-30 has a higher specific impulse and thrust weight ratio.

10 years ago | Likes 6 Dislikes 0

But it has more problems, it can't be reliably fired like the GAU. Warthogs tear entire fields out of the ground, but the GSh can't compare.

10 years ago | Likes 4 Dislikes 1

You mean like this? https://what-if.xkcd.com/21/

10 years ago | Likes 33 Dislikes 0

.

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

that's just awesome

10 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 0

You mean like Jetpack Joyride?

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

OMG. Thank you!

10 years ago | Likes 1 Dislikes 0

These are amongst my favourite things on the internet!

10 years ago | Likes 5 Dislikes 0

Such an awesome book. +1 for reminding me of it

10 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 0

Picture /site won't load for me, what is it?

10 years ago | Likes 2 Dislikes 0

A discussion on the topic "Is it possible to build a jetpack using downward firing machine guns?" w/illustrations

10 years ago | Likes 3 Dislikes 0

Mount a GAU-8 on a car, put car in neutral, and start firing backward from a standstill = breaking the interstate speed limit in under 3sec.

10 years ago | Likes 6 Dislikes 0