DeathStarWasAnInsideJob
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G'day Imgur, in today's post I'll be doing some mythsbusting on the topic of Fighter aircraft and Air Combat. Settle down and get comfortable cuz this post is a little long.
Myth No.1: Afterburner will get you to top speed and outrun everything
Lots of people believe that a fighter jet on full afterburner can fly at their max speed for a while and run away from any threat. Afterburners are actually extremely fuel thirsty, and very few planes can fly at their Max speed for more than a few minutes. Planes have extra thrust/engine power to carry more payload and climb higher, but not to fly faster. Most Fighter Jet’s top speeds are not limited by engine thrust. For example, an F-15C Eagle’s max speed is about Mach 2.4/2800 km/h, but it can only maintain that speed for two minutes before the engine intakes and the engine fan blades begins overheating or becomes stressed out.
F-22s and F-16s are unable to maintain their top speed for more than 3-4 minutes for the same reason, the friction generated at Mach 2 can deform and eventually melt the cockpit canopy.
What are Fighter jet canopy made from? Mostly PolyMethyl Acrylite, or Polycarbonate, they’re basically very strong acrylic glass.
Fuel consumption for a Jet with afterburners is also shocking. This is an F-16C, it’s powered by a GE F-110 engine that generates nearly 30,000 pounds/14 tons of thrust, it also burns 250-300 kilos of fuel per minute at 10,000 ft (Max throttle with afterburners). So an F-16C will run of fuel in less than 9 minutes at full power.
Myth No.2: Planes can scramble immediately in emergencies.
Here’s a rubbish trope seen in every movie. Our band of brave badasses need to escape quickly or stop the bad guys. They jump on a helicopter/fighter jet/nuclear powered UFO, flicks a shitload of switches, and within a minute or so they’re flying.
In reality the fastest time a military plane can ‘scramble’ to takeoff is 10-15 minutes after the alarms start screaming.
During the Cold War Paranoias of the 50’s, the U.S Air Force became obsessed with ‘operational readiness’. They wanted to be sure that American planes can nuke the Russians before the Reds can nuke American airbases. Bombers were kept on 24-7 alert, ready to fry Communists with the power of the Atom bomb, Fighters were kept on 24-7 alert ready to stop the Russians from frying Americans. It was a security nightmare. Bombers and Fighters, fully loaded with fuel and armament (sometimes nuclear bombs) sat outside their hangers, and mechanics slept underneath the plane or inside the hanger.
Even with such extreme measures, Bombers could only take off after 20 minutes, Fighter jets sometimes did leave the ground 10 minutes after receiving notice. During 9/11, F-15s directed to stop the hijacked planes, took 11 minutes to be armed and piloted, and 7 minutes to take off. (Some sources say they could have taken as little as 8 minutes)
Myths 3. Dogfights between planes involves spraying bullets.
First thing first, I’m not saying that fighter jets never use gun/cannons on each-other. When the U.S introduced the F-4B Phantom, a fighter without a cannon, into the Vietnam War, it lost badly in close ranges. However, the clear majority of air combat after the 1950s are done from very long range. Missiles like the America AIM-120 and the Chinese PL-10 can hit targets from 100km away, ramjet missiles like the British Meteor aim to push their range to 150+km. Even ‘short’ ranged air to air missiles like the Sidewinder and the ASRAAM can travel 20-40km. If two squadrons of Fighter aircraft meet, chances are that one side will back off before they can visually contact each other.
An F/A-18's Gatling cannon and 570 rounds of 20mm ammo
Fighter planes also carry very little ammo for their gun. F-15Cs carry eight missiles each and 600 rounds of ammo, but keep in mind the M61 cannon fires at 6000 rpm, a F-15 will run out of ammo after 7 seconds of firing. The ammo capacity on the new F-35 is even more pathetic, a F-35 will expend all of her 180 25mm shells in less than four seconds.
Myths. 3: Stealth=Radar invisibility.
There are two types of Stealth technology, first is shaping the Airplane to deflect radar waves (Which is why the F-22 and B-2 looks so smooth and rounded) second is using radar-absorbing paint or fibre to cover the aircraft. Most stealth planes use both techniques. However both techniques can be bypassed by VLF radar or Infrared detection.
A Chinese JY-26 VLF radar
While Stealth aircraft are hard to shoot down and are valuable as weapons, they’re not invisible. High frequency radar (We’re talking about the wavelength of the radio wave here) can detect even F-22 and B-2s, but they can’t track or produce a targeting solution accurate enough to fire a missile at it. Modern Infrared heat seeker missiles or Infrared sensors can also lock onto stealth aircrafts from 60-100km away. If a AIM-9X missile can lock onto a cigarette, it will lock onto any jet engine.
Myths 4. Dogfights will end up with two dudes trying to outturn each other.
According to badass test pilot Lt. Col. "Spanky" Clifton (Who has flown America, European and Soviet jets) he says that turn too much during a dogfight and you’ll kill yourself. The reason is simple, aggressive turning cause aircraft to lose speed. Once you’re slow, the enemy will put some distance between him and you then aim at you comfortably, next thing you know you’re chewed up by cannon fire and short range missiles.
So what is Col. Clifton’s advice on dogfights? ‘Keep the airspeed up’ Do a combination of vertical and horizontal maneuvers and try to kill the other guy before he starts dogfighting with you.
Myth 5: Fancy fighter jets are pointless! Long range air combat is overrated!
(I've heard a lot about this one when people criticize the F-35, it's a bad airplane sure, but it's not bad because of it's long-range combat abilities.)
It’s well known that, despite the invention of long range missiles, dogfights are still relevant, so why build fancy, expensive jets that struggle in close range? Well, large, complex aircrafts can carry bigger radar and more long ranged missile, they can inflict heavy losses before dogfighting. Even ‘big’ F-15s or Su-27s are still reasonably agile and can be a challenge to take down for small fighter like the F-16, Gripen or
A chart demonstrating the range of various Russian missiles
Long range missiles were at their infancy and struggled to be useful during the Vietnam War, but by the 90’s they were so good that 66$ of AIM-7 and AIM-120 missiles that were fired resulted in a kill. During the Gulf War, the Iraqis and American planes never got within 20 miles of eachother during air combat
Things didn't end well for Iraqi pilots.
A sweet photo of F-14s waiting to be refueled by KC-10
Thanks for reading!
This article was a bit sloppy! I hope you enjoyed it anyway and learnt something, be sure to read my other posts.
My A-10 post: https://imgur.com/gallery/y08jM
The F-35 and what went wrong: https://imgur.com/gallery/jVVUZ
History of Fighter planes and air combat: https://imgur.com/gallery/kjdyf
The Su-27 Flanker: https://imgur.com/gallery/mF67K
The FW-190: https://imgur.com/gallery/gQqxU
wenoc
Hangar. It is spelled hangar.
G10rgos7
"The F-35 is a bad jet, sure" 1. You've never flown one 2. You'll never fly one 3. It's brand new, barely in service and unproven
TotallyNotAPotato2902
And the ones that do fly it, loves it
G10rgos7
My best friend is a Lt and he’s told me a few things about the capabilities of his jet (F-35) that make all others seem like WW1 planes
cogs
I'll remind the guys sitting Alert 5 that they can't actually launch for 10-15 minutes.
PigsWeGetWhatPigsDeserve
I still think the F16 is the best looking fighter jet ever designed.
SelfWalkingDog
10 minutes? What about alert 5 on an aircraft carrier?
Falanxzealot
There's a lot of cobblers sprinkled in here to salt the 'facts'.
theartofselfdefense
The bit about dogfighting is a non-sequitur. A guy saying "don't get into a dogfight" doesn't = most dogfights aren't "who can turn faster"
whitepolarbear
for myth 2... iirc, the first planes up during 9/11 were not armed and they had planned to ram into jets if needed
DeathStarWasAnInsideJob
Yeah bout those were already in the air by coincidence. The F-15s were ordered to scramble after the first plane crashed into the tower
TheTimesTheyAreAChangin
US Army Blackhawks were also shot down, during the gulf war, by US Air Force jets because they didn't get close enough to identify them.
Gustave13
Black Hawk Down :<
OmenRider
and not squawking correctly, so airborne and ground radars couldn't immediately identify them as friendlies.
TheTimesTheyAreAChangin
True. Lessons learned on both sides.
Counterfit
Concerning Myth 5, an unarmed EF-111 was credited with an A2A kill by maneuvering an Iraqi jet into the ground.
reik483
The Cold War was crazy. My dad patrolled Alaska in an F-111 with tactical nukes in his payload.
Jonny1981
Well done. Only critique, is that "alert status" jets are able to be wheels up in less than 9 minutes. They're always prepped to roll out.
JoeSchmew
You commented on VLF radar, the you mentioned high frequency in the same paragraph. Unless I'm mistaken, I think VLF is Very Low Frequency.
ImAkuTheShapeShiftingMasterofDarkness
Well technically it's higher than ULF sooo... but your right HF is 3-30mhz which is not really near the frequency of VLF.
WhatzitTooya
Yes, in the context that the usual high frequency radars (I'm talking 2-20 GHz) are jammed by the stealth properties of the plane.
GlassBomb
A good thing to think about when it comes to air combat is this; Speed is life. Altitude is life insurance.
FussyZeus
Where I work we sit under the practice area for an airbase, building regularly gets buzzed by a tanker and fighters. Awesome to watch.
ToTheBeeMobile
Code Name: ASRAAM
Counterfit
Better: Joint Air-To-Surface Standoff Missle. JASSM.
ModernDayBabaYaga
Advanced Short Range Air-toAir Missile, but yeah we joke about that too.
Zipp4Real
Also the name of a bad German porno...
Zipp4Real
probably.
HooterF22
As an F-22 pilot, correction-canopies restrict speed at lower altitudes (air friction). I've had the F-22 supersonic 5+ minutes above 50k
GoodGuyJamie
F-22 Work Stories pls haha
HooterF22
Haha...I could tell you but---- (you know how this story ends)
ilikehornets
There's bits of info here mixed with tons of bullshit
twfeline
Please note which bits are bull.
ilikehornets
I'd say all points have their problems, No 5. seems to be the closest to truth. I'll address some points in replies
ilikehornets
1. AB gets you to max speed, that's the purpose, top speed is usually limited by drag, mach 2 structural limit is only possible clean config
ilikehornets
2. QRA planes have different readiness, unpowered jet might take 10 minutes but it'll only take 1 if plane is idling in hangar pilot inside
ilikehornets
3. Semantics, dogfight implies WVR, guns still aren't used much tho. Phantoms lost due to bad initial tactics, not lack of cannon
JebediahJones
Gunfighting was more of a WW2 era thing
charlie2979
And Korea, plus Vietnam to some extent. It's dead now though.
JebediahJones
I just said WW2 because it's fewer characters than "propeller driven aircraft"
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eetsumkaus
well, with more sensor and guidance systems, wouldn't that still be the case? You're just doing it off screens instead of by your eyes/ears
OmenRider
Back in the good old days where you didn't have to worry about getting shot down by telephone pole-sized missiles traveling at Mach 7+
OmenRider
dodge a SAM, then rethink your previous statement.
aceebro
Man you should say that to an air force pilot veteran IRL. I wanna see what happens.
DeathStarWasAnInsideJob
Well, today it's more about good judgement and good decisionmaking
DeathStarWasAnInsideJob
Not raw reflex
WalterKrunkite
I didn't realize there was mass confusion on this
mikeemoo2071
Weapons of Mass Confusion? Best get ready to invade
C141Clay
Hollywood aviation screwups are so hard to watch, and would be so easy to avoid.
DeathStarWasAnInsideJob
Oh no it's just some myths I found on the internet
Stewker
Aye as others have said, youve posted some incorrect information yourself, only moving the myths around rather than correcting :/
eyeLied
As a joint forces weapons evaluator programmer, even the "correct" information you think you have is incorrect.
DeathStarWasAnInsideJob
Can you specify please? I tried to use trustworthy websites(AusAirPower, AustralianDoD, Jalopnik etc
eyeLied
No nation puts out their true numbers. You did good. I shouldn't have said anything.
DeathStarWasAnInsideJob
Nah man you have a good point, lots of this stuff is also quite subjective and dependent on combat conditions etc
WhatDoYouMeanICantStickMyFingerThere
Not bad. Some of the info is wrong, but not bad. Civilians who dont know any better will think this is great.
RWM90
Worth saying (since he was on the topic), the SPC and FF is so low at altitude (FL400+) that you can maintain max AB for a long time.
InsufferableNinja
Confirmed. As a career civilian with over 30 years not in the service, I don't know any better and think this is great.
WhatDoYouMeanICantStickMyFingerThere
Its just in the details. Also working on fighter jets for 17 years, you find stuff. I cant watch plane movies (Top Gun) without ripping them
usedparachute4sale
Will you enlist when you retire as a civilian? In the army you get a Purple Heart when wounded in combat, civilians get divorce papers.
CaptainLateToTheGame
F-15C weapons troop here, the gun holds ~950 rnds. 600 is closer to E model capacity.
DeathStarWasAnInsideJob
Wow, how much did the A version carry? I though the C had less ammo to make space for avionics
Loxachi
Interesting choice that. Especially in the context of the A-10 gun debate relating to CAS
Frederf
Big myth is the F-4 cannon thing. Top Gun school was at the same time as the cannon upgrade. Pilots that went to Top Gun but didn't get a 1/
Frederf
2/ cannon installed did very well. Pilots that got a cannon-equipped jet but didn't go to school did poorly. The gun made little difference.
Loxachi
1/Yup that combined with a system called combat tree resulting in a Higher K/D for the non cannon equipped Navy F-4s when compared to their
Loxachi
Airforce counter parts and more kills overall
punasiipi
Please enlighten us. Most of us are civilians, after all. This subject matter is extremely interesting and we want to know more.
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WhatDoYouMeanICantStickMyFingerThere
The F-16 in the picture has a Pratt & Whittney engine NOT a GE. PW is ~30,000lbs of thrust. GE's produce ~33,000lbs of thrust.
eetsumkaus
I thought some F-16's had GE depending on their block number?
Frederf
If it ends in a 0 it is a GE and a 2 PW (30/32, 40/42, 50/52). Earlier 1-25 were always PW.
WhatDoYouMeanICantStickMyFingerThere
They do, but you can tell what kind of engine it is by the shape of the intake on a jet. This is a "small mouth"= PW.
WhatDoYouMeanICantStickMyFingerThere
Jets being scrambled can take as little as 5 minutes from the alarm.
vanilla4gorilla
Can confirm F18's take 10-15
NotaClipaMagazine
There used to be a big button on the nose gear of the B-1 that would start up everything in 3-4 min. Source: worked in B-1 squadron.
WhatDoYouMeanICantStickMyFingerThere
Yup. I work F-16's from alarm to taxi for us can be <5 minutes.
WhatDoYouMeanICantStickMyFingerThere
Its just some of it is out of context. Afterburners do provide more speed (thats what they are there for)...
punasiipi
Thanks! Awesome.
eetsumkaus
huh? what I got out of it was "you can't use it for more than a couple minutes or you'll kill the plane"
WhatDoYouMeanICantStickMyFingerThere
Kinda. A. you'll run out of fuel QUICKLY, B. Eng exhaust temps can cause a burn through if held too long.
eetsumkaus
well the point is that he did say it WILL get you to top speed. Most of the post was just devoted to how that WASN'T a good idea
punasiipi
I don't think it was unclear that they provide more speed. What was interesting to me, was that the plane's chassis can't withstand thespeed
WhatDoYouMeanICantStickMyFingerThere
The airframes will hold up, but the engines themselves wont. Dumping straight JP8 into the exhaust (AB) will produce tremendous heat.
WhatDoYouMeanICantStickMyFingerThere
Well the way Op wrote/copied, he said "but not to fly faster." Thats exactly what the AB is for. But yes, there is a Max speed.
Vicariouscrow
I think he meant "it's not for flying faster for a prolonged amount of time", or that's what I got out of it at least
daction
For instance, mach 2.4 is 2962 kph
DavidBrooker
Mach 2.4 is not a velocity. It is only associated with a single velocity at a specific density.
DavidBrooker
(Which is why cryogenic and pressurized wind tunnels exist. Princeton has a wind tunnel that can pressurize to 400atm pressure)
IOnceOwnedMoonMoonButOnceHeTriedToLickMyBallsAndRanAwayIMissHim
I understand these words. Individually.
DavidBrooker
A 200 m/s flow over a 10 cm wing is very different than a 10 m wing. But if the small one is at 100 atm pressure, they're the same.
Frederf
Mach 2.4 is a huge range of speeds.
daction
True, but still nowhere near 1800 even at maximum altitude.
KharnApproves
This post got in my OODA loop
082734041910
Underrated comment
KharnApproves
I try
f1photog
I was deployed with F-15Es to Kuwait in '02 and we scrambled alert jets ~7 minutes almost every day. The pilot/WSO would jump in, (1)
f1photog
fire the engines, run AFCS and radar BITs, and taxi. By the time they took off the target pod and ICMS were timed in and ready to work.
TheSaucyCrumpet
Regarding the F-35 comment "it's a bad aircraft sure" What exactly is bad about it other than cost? It's an extremely capable aircraft.
Corsair212
Because to utilize the stealth you can't have much payload, so full armament makes it on par with an F-16 in terms of overall usefulness.
TheSaucyCrumpet
The point is you don't use external stores until DEAD and OCA have destroyed the threats. You have a stealth option that the Viper doesn't.
DeathStarWasAnInsideJob
I wrote a post explaining why it's troubled. Basically the VTOL and the regular versions have conflicting design requirements
TheSaucyCrumpet
Sure, but name one aircraft ever made that doesn't have conflicting design requirements.
DeathStarWasAnInsideJob
F-15, AIR SUPREMACY A-10 CLOSE SUPPORT MiG-25 INTERCEPTION
DeathStarWasAnInsideJob
I'm talking about design a plane to optimise towards just one role
DarkUranium
Yeah, when you can get it in the air. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3586220
Loxachi
Considering that F-35s this early in service get better flight readiness than any of the teen series its in the air quite alot.
TheSaucyCrumpet
You know anything about the Daily Mail?
Loxachi
Cost aint that bad either. 90 or 85 mill a pop compared to a non-flyaway 75mill for a new superhornet or F-16blk60 sounds like a bargain.
TheSaucyCrumpet
Yep, and when you factor in how expensive legacy airframes can be, it can make a lot of financial sense after the initial outlay.
BananaShip
F-35 isnt 85 mil yet (F-35C is $116 million without the engine). Navy pays around 52 million per superhornet.
Loxachi
We are experincing a 4-6% decrease in price year to year by 2018 it will be 85 mill for the A model.
Loxachi
Also the F-18 cost in FY15 is 72 million without pods or tanks.
BananaShip
Unit Cost: $57 million according to the navy http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=1100&tid=1200&ct=1
BananaShip
Not to mention Superhornets are around $18,000 per flight hour compared to $42,000 for F-35A.
Loxachi
The Navy and Airforce calculate the CPFH in vastly diffrent ways with the Airforce taking more things into account just FYI
Loxachi
When things are put into an even breakdown so that we arnt comparing apples to oranges the F-35 is around 21K per hour.
BananaShip
Well you're comparing apples to oranges in the first place. Pretty sure the 85 million is for the F-35A.
BananaShip
And from what I can find that 21k is just an estimate and not yet achieved.
Loxachi
Its also important to point out that new tech such as "Fibermat" on the F-35 allows it to be stealthy even in the VLF and VHF bands
DeathStarWasAnInsideJob
Fibremats are not stealthy against VLF, but they are easy to maintains. avoiding VLF mainly has to do with the shaping of the aircrafts
Loxachi
While also making the F-35 and estimated two orders of magnitude "stealthier" than the F-22 .
darthcaius
If the f-35 ever has to go heat to guns, everything before that point has been royally fucked up.
SloMoHippo
Warning shots?
fuhsmc
Modern military aircraft have an IDing device that indicates whether the unidentified plane is friend or foe before engagement.
darthcaius
That is not a thing in the air force. Gun shots are taken around the 0.5-1.0 mile range. If you're that close, you're fighting.
Zokalwe
Visual ID?
darthcaius
IFF, radar id, and AWACS will take care of identification for engaging.
darthcaius
Also, a traditional dog fight IS a turn circle battle. The block 50 f-16 can accelerate in a 9g turn. They will never run out of energy.
charlie2979
At what height?
darthcaius
This was at around 5000, turned vertical in excess of 500kts, pulled power and topped out somewhere above 30,000ft
Falanxzealot
2.) we have. We're on 4th gen SCTBs and 3rd gen TBCs. That means we can generate a hell of a lot more power out of the same engine envelope
Ewanator
By traditional you mean ww1 right? Still a valid point though. +1
mibango
And also if the other guy overshoots isnt that what you want?
darthcaius
Yes
themilkmancometh
certain aircraft should never engage in a dog fight like the F22/F35, others like the F16, Euro-Typhoon , Su37 excel in that role
Anonawesome
F22 can hold it's own in a dogfight. 2 words. Thrust. Vectoring.
Kraj71
Those F-119's are scary sons of bitches
Anonawesome
As a PW-F100 maintainer, I WISH I worked on them.
themilkmancometh
Red flag event in alaska the F22 vs typhoon they noticed that compared to the typhoon the F22 couldn't accelerate fast enough
themilkmancometh
Out of the turn and bled speed and that's how the eurofighter won some engagements, she's not a turn fighter.
IOnceOwnedMoonMoonButOnceHeTriedToLickMyBallsAndRanAwayIMissHim
BTW doesn't a lot of aircrafts have active trust vectoring now?
Anonawesome
no
RobThaRobber
That's for hyper maneuverability, not sure how well it does in energy retention.
Corsair212
When you've got a 2:1 thrust to weight ratio acceleration will save you every time.
Anonawesome
That's the whole point of it. Tighter turning while maintaining speed. A normal jet needs to shed speed for tighter turning. Not the F22.
DeathStarWasAnInsideJob
I'm no expert on the topic so there could be mistake, just a guy who spent too many hours going through books or aviation related websites.
SeymourSnatch
1+ For awesomeness
SeymourSnatch
I'm not an expert either but my flat mate is in the british RAF and he was saying that typhoons can be scrambled and reach London in 6mins
KeyMasterVinzClortho
Once had a chance to talk to the Florida "on-standby" crew. On high alert just in case enemy planes come in US air space. Very cool guys.
BERGENAT0R
I've launched F15out in alert status under 5 min. Jets on alert are preset with all but a few switches set and minimal safing gear installed
Highspark710
Gotta say I thought it was a great read until I had my dad fact check em. He's a F-16 pilot and says most of the info here is way off. (1/2)
Highspark710
Especially the dogfighting and the canopy melting sections. (2/2)
Jicks
I can tell you're not an expert. Some of these are blatantly wrong.
SvarvSven
For quick take offs, you put the airplanes on highest alert. That means they are standing ready / turned on with pilots in them. ^^
DiscWarrior
My Dad did exactly that during the Cold War in West Germany in 80s. He says that sitting in his F-16 on nuke alert was the creepiest thing.
SvarvSven
I bet it must have been. Can't even imagine what it would be like. Source for my statment: I was in the Air Force (not a pilot). ^^
ionlyregisteredtosavelinks
Why would you need to provide a src to "I bet it must have been. Can't even imagine what it would be like" Show-off? but not a pilot, so...
SvarvSven
The source was for my earlier statement..
fuhsmc
OP sounds like me back when I nerded the hell out of military history. Nice to meet a fellow buff.
epicureosity
one that i noticed is that "high frequency" and "radio wave" do not go together. VLF probably even stands for "very low frequency."
MLEMInTinyLetters
Well what about the most controversial issue of our times? Can jet fuel melt steel beams?!
Rhino4
The last one about the gulf war is factually incorrect. Most of these are at least partially wrong as well.
Stuebydoo
2/2 since the Jaguar was so old, slow and shit it didn't stand a chance in conventional combat
Stuebydoo
RAF piloting Jaguars were trained to drop to very low altitude to avoid being shot down... 1/2
CaptainJusticeX
One note about 9/11, not all the fighters were armed. My buddy's dad took off with the knowledge he might have to ram a hijacked plane. 1/2
CaptainJusticeX
Said it was the most difficult mission he ever flew because of that knowledge but they needed planes in the air ASAP 2/2
PersonenschadenImGleisbett
do you know about "Operation Chrome Dome" ?
DontcallmeLen
But you've not clarified if the pattern is full for Ghostrider.
Stuebydoo
And if you screw up just this much, you'll be flying a cargo plane full of rubber dog shit out of Hong Kong!
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toonhomer84
Negative Ghostrider, the pattern is full
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toonhomer84
Sorry Goose, but it's time to buzz the tower
OdeToBouncer
http://imgur.com/HOjO96y
CaptainJusticeX
I think that covers flybys
LetsGiveItATry
Does it matter?
MoreOftenThanNot
I bet you're a hoot at parties.
JorRam
yes
kidafrika2020
Great read! Correction on myth 2. I worked combat alert for a couple of years and we routinely launched F-15s in 4 min, usually 1/2
PMPB
I think the boys and gals from CFB Cold Lake on Arctic Bear Bomber alert like to put #2 to the test as well.
CPTNNemo
heard the same from my dad, the fighters had few minutes to be in air especially those close to the borders
Arillo
Agreed. I hear them get called out and go up in 4min. Again on alert status though.
stealthgunner385
MiG-21s (at least those in Yugoslav services) could get up in the air in three. If the pilots are on standby near the jets (as you do)-- 1/2
stealthgunner385
They'd literally need a minute and a half to start the electronics, spool the engine, stabilize the HSI and start taxiing to the runway. 2/2
Tahlaia
Was about to comment the same,at a deployed base alert birds average 3-5 mins to be in air and sprinting at a target.
ThatITdude
And now you're sitting here browsing Imgur
Spinnnnn
Yeah, I think it all depends at what combat readiness state forces are already in when they need to scramble.
mobbatbarnmedautomatvapen
And dont forget about the bombbers - they flew constantly, in case of... (relieved from station after a while by next o.c.)
Kaylakins
My job is to control US alert fighter jets to intercept threats and it's possible to be up sooner but it honestly depends. What base?
IOnceOwnedMoonMoonButOnceHeTriedToLickMyBallsAndRanAwayIMissHim
Arebelongtous A/F Base.
kidafrika2020
Elmo
kidafrika2020
2/2 they would be wheels up in under 3. Granted they were sitting "alert status", but that is a huge part of the fighter mission.
jayphat
I was going to say, pretty sure I read the woman who was on the suicide mission to take down the airline on 9/11 was in the air in 4 mins.
IOnceOwnedMoonMoonButOnceHeTriedToLickMyBallsAndRanAwayIMissHim
What woman? Care to elaborate?
jayphat
There were two reserve pilots sent up to intercept the last plane, no weapons. They were rushed to get into the air. It was a suicide trip.
LaundryNight
I concur. In the Navy we had the "Alert 5" sitting on the deck, ready to go as required. Wheels up time was supposed to be under 5 minutes.
OZVerti
Third'd? I've seen them ready and airborne in 5 mins.
ilikehornets
hate to be that guy, but opsec? We were told not to talk about readiness
fuhsmc
Good initiative, bad judgment. It's not like they were talking about specific whos, whats, wheres, etc.
Cleco
This kind of stuff is okay, being as this is actually common knowledge if you do your research properly.
plymouthvaliant
Just because it's on Wikipedia doesn't mean it's unclassified.
Cleco
Not to mention that it is concerning the F-15, which isn't uesd nearly as much anymore.
kidafrika2020
I appreciate you looking out for security but this is information that has been posted on CNN. As long as we did not talk about 1/2
kidafrika2020
2/2 the number of aircraft on "status" and specifics such as times for practice launches this is fine.
ExpatProblems
I'll 2nd that. Spent many, many nights on the flight line in a full R11 to top off a/c sitting in alert position. Coolest moment of my /1
ExpatProblems
Career was quickly launching two KC135s to Libya during an ORI. (Obvi not ME launching, but was part of a team).
TwiceMarkedFool
What's an ORI?
ExpatProblems
Type of inspection. I think they might have changed the name.
raminagrobis
http://imgur.com/jmKFFOb.jpg
mjb52587
Operational readiness inspection
[deleted]
[deleted]
NachoPete
It lasted until after Desert Storm.
Lcat84
Worked at whiteman afb. Can confirm, we always had a B2 on standby. Also later versions of the f4 phantom did include a cannon.
imgurnaut
Whiteman... http://66.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mb941zBAHv1r76lino1_250.gif
Lcat84
Accurate
ameki
Myth 6: In the movies the pilots dodge/ dogfight missiles for ages. Actually Many missiles flight time is less than a min. burn even less
ModernDayBabaYaga
many SRM's have proximity fuzes and detonate after fuel is spent.
DeathStarWasAnInsideJob
Yep, Missiles easily go over Mach 4, very little time do dodge it
Llamahappy
What about decoys, can they trick missiles well?
ameki
depends on the missile and chaff or flare tech and pilots timing. quite a bad success rate I think.
CaptainLateToTheGame
Ah, good old "Behind Enemy Lines"
ameki
I was thinking of exactly that movie
CaptainLateToTheGame
I'd also REALLY like to know where they got the idea for that missile's warhead. Some kind of shotgun thing AND impact?
ameki
also I think he used the jettison fueltank button for firing missiles
CaptainLateToTheGame
The pilot did jett the tanks. Issue there is JP-8 doesn't combust like that.
missleadinginiformation
That's very real. Some missiles have a bunch of steal rods or flechettes.
userabc
Ok, I will add this to my favorites and also I need an F/A-18's Gatling cannon and 570 rounds of 20mm ammo for my car.
Tempounplugged
I need that for my aunt Linda's ass
GarandGunner
http://what-if.xkcd.com/imgs/a/21/jetpack_speeding.png
Randomice
Consider the recoil for a minute. I bet you could sell tickets for a ride. :)
userabc
I will take your mom for a ride for free.
Randomice
She might like that!
Noughmad
TheHeavilyArmedRat
@howtogoincirclesveryfast.
DeathStarWasAnInsideJob
You get more horsepower out of that gun's recoil than a Ferrari...
mikeemoo2071
Point it at that tailgating car; win-win situation
TheManSpider
That Ferrari was probably just another dictator in the wall
g2222
You mean thurst....and what if it had more than one minigun? Could it actually slow/stop the plane mid flight?
ImAShittyTransAm
The A-10 Warthog has two jet engines capable of up to 2 tons of thrust each. The GAU-8, the gun on it, generates 5 tons while firing.
ImAShittyTransAm
So, yes, yes it does happen in some cases. The Ju-87 Stuka also dipped in heading when firing its two 37-mm cannons. (One possible config)
samthing
Some heavily armed WW2 planes could actually stall if you shot long burst with all cannons while climbing or in low energy state.
tomyironmane
you want the real vroom? Soviet GSh-6-30
arobotblowinghislaserload
I prefer the GAU-8 Avenger
tomyironmane
That' OK, but the GSh-6-30 has a higher specific impulse and thrust weight ratio.
ClitKicker87
But it has more problems, it can't be reliably fired like the GAU. Warthogs tear entire fields out of the ground, but the GSh can't compare.
theUniverseMomentum
You mean like this? https://what-if.xkcd.com/21/
DickensUpToTheCeiling
.
Hecates
that's just awesome
IOnceOwnedMoonMoonButOnceHeTriedToLickMyBallsAndRanAwayIMissHim
You mean like Jetpack Joyride?
chillin223
OMG. Thank you!
NOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPEE
Thank you
UmbrellaCorps
These are amongst my favourite things on the internet!
EnterOmega
Such an awesome book. +1 for reminding me of it
GeneralBullshit
Picture /site won't load for me, what is it?
Maraak
A discussion on the topic "Is it possible to build a jetpack using downward firing machine guns?" w/illustrations
Maraak
Mount a GAU-8 on a car, put car in neutral, and start firing backward from a standstill = breaking the interstate speed limit in under 3sec.