BythepowerofPlank
114662
1812
87
Am just silly sometimes, me.
Jul 6, 2023 11:26 AM
BythepowerofPlank
114662
1812
87
Am just silly sometimes, me.
carrotsonfire
It's a bit of a crab bucket mentality. Why should they get for free what I had to work for/earn? The same mentality exists in sections of immigrant populations where they hate illegal immigrants because they didn't have to go through the immigration process that the legal immigrants did.
BeckyLookAtHerButt
The health insurance company oligarchs do not care for this line of thinking.
kylefromterminator
Oh we understand but we have evil people in power convincing idiots that it’s not in their best interest, plus we have no control over what they do cause they all run on lies and never follow through
relsky
Nah. They make more money on insurance because they never actually give you anything for it. Exactly how some products are shifting to a "service." Why sell you a game when they can rent you a game?
stulfer
Most Americans do believe this. Polls routinely show it. The problem is that a powerful minority wants to burn it all down and rule over the ashes.
Astral134
Who says we don’t?
ArmedandOverclocked
Companies that offer health coverage would save a ton of money from a single payer system. However People will continue to work for a crappy job to avoid losing health coverage, which is why those companies are largely against single payer systems.
G0MeatCube
It's not that we don't want it as a people. Shit is so corrupt it would take burning the entire place down to rebuild it correctly
ICannotSanctionURBuffoonery
But the new US economy isn't built on money spent in shops. It's built on endless required expenses for living, funding billion dollar industries that buy elections.
phobosorbust
ah yes, Americans, that famously unified group of people who definitely all hold the same opinions...
Troliosis
Comment section a total echo chamber. Also, wrong meme.
Raventhief
But then some people would have something they didn't earn. Can't have that.
jimijoejohnson
I would hope this is a tongue in cheek statement… it has certainly been earned
RandyRandalman
The notion that you have to work for absolutely everything in your life, regardless of whether or not you need those things TO LIVE, is an entirely capitalist/classist concept.
slatsisanoldie
I think this just summed up America perfectly. Unfortunately.
gtotherizzle
The Jamestown myth.
joot
“Let him die!” One of the most telling moments in Republican history.
CaptainHowdyonmeds
American have changed in my lifetime. It seems that people are struggling to get by and holding on to what they have as tight as possible. A sociciety of "me". That selfishness and greed takes shape in policies implemented.
memeseeks
Who the fuck do you think you are making sense!
Cats2cats
The middle class has been rapidly shrinking. So in a few years the rich are going to have to pay their fair share as there will be minimal monies circulating. The greedy top are too power hungry to acknowledge this.
OtterlyMagnificent
Oh, they don't care. They'll acknowledge it. They'll just cut the bottom chunk of the ultrawealthy off and make them the new middle-class until they're no longer usable, rinse and repeat until all the wealth in the world belongs to a select few living in gilded airships and flying islands so the billions of poor can't reach them to kill them.
LoquaciousDude
Tangentially related, I fucking hate how "pro economy" politics talk about lowing corporate taxes, that's not pro economy, lowering taxes reduces reinvestment in the economy, increasing said taxes increases reinvestment, as that money is better spent expanding the business, and thus not being profits and getting taxes, than being taken as profits and getting taxed. And idiots fucking buy it as well
HonestCommentFarmer
I think it's silly that we don't distinguish between small businesses and large ones. I get that there's a question of how do you define it, but that there's the same tax incentive for my local bakery as there is for Apple Computers is ridiculous.
dryrunner
You are assuming the laws are not passed by someone successfully lobbied by the health insurance industry.
LincLoud
Idiots have been convinced that doing so would only make things more expensive, not less.
merrowcattech
No, we're not all idiots. We were simply unlucky enough to be born into a country run by capitalist greed. I lived in Sydney for a year in 99. I wish I had stayed.
alyssaaac
People against that are usually brainwashed by a certain “news” channel that tells them other people are the sole reason for anything going wrong in their life. They have no empathy besides others who spout the same bullshit
plainoldfool
I remember watching an interview with some dude who owned about a dozen Wetzels Pretzels somewhere in the Mid-West who complained about raises to the state minimum wages but also admitted whenever the minimum wage was increased there was also a similar increase in sales at his locations. He didn't want to pay his employees more than he had to but acknowledged it was good for business as well.
Chrondeath
I think it's like, a scarcity mindset plus somehow feeling like capitalism makes the whole business fragile? e.g. "There's no way we have enough money to pay for everyone, and if we try to lower medical costs no one will want to be doctors and then we'll have no healthcare at all." Free-market types love to make the latter argument about any form of intervention.
KRicci
Having grown up around a lot of these types, I think this is exactly it. They see society like nature, where a certain number of the cute bunny rabbits have to get eaten or the whole ecosystem will collapse on itself, and they think they're very wise for understanding this and stoically resisting the urge to meddle in the system. We built civilization so we don't have to live like that, of course
BythepowerofPlank
Which makes no sense at all. It's rather baffling to me
ActualTttony
Most do. The ones who don't use their concentrated wealth to control the economy and stifle that idea.
ethicalinfant
Americans do support it. We're not a hive mind.
gtotherizzle
I point to co-workers back when the affordable care act was introduced (one of the few jobs I had with insurance in my early 30's) who got visibly pissed that their premiums went up like 2% because they goddamn weren't gonna pay for a bunch of poor people!
BythepowerofPlank
well.... that's bizzare. they just think it's unimaginable they could ever lose their job???? or imagine a world where if you got approved for an operation, it would simply be done, without insurance fucking you over?
Mairoa
Selfish people always seem to assume they'll be fine until they're not. And when they're not, it's an exception, and everyone else was a moocher. THEY have the real need though. See: anti abortion extremists getting abortions and calling themselves the exception. And republicans who grew up on financial assistance and "earned" their way up with "no help."
gtotherizzle
I'm just quoting facts from 2012 that I observed.
miserycones
This is a good argument for rent control also, people would be spending a lot more on fun stuff if it wasn't all being syphoned off by landlords
mrthewhitee
Good argument for who? Why do politicians or business people care if your spending more on fun stuff if they're already getting 100% of your income in one way or another?
gypsyspot
But landlords lobby. It's not a genius conspiracy. There are certain bad actors being corrupt. Zillow, for example has their own concerns, insurance companies theirs, they all lobby on their own behalf and don't care if people have more money to spend elsewhere. all that matters is that they get theirs. The economy is not their concern, only their shareholders. And politicians are corrupt. It's quite simple and selfish, not a well thought out global economic plan by CEOs.
pleaseconsiderthatImightbejoking
Rent control specifically doesn't solve the issue of lack of affordable housing. It just protects current tenants from the consequence. It's the "fuck you I got mine" approach.
mardukkur
Rent control drives up costs and reduces supply. NYC's rent control system has resulted in some of the most expensive rents in the country and a serious lack of housing.
mardukkur
I do realize you downvoters just want rents to be lower but please educate yourself on how rent control works, it's one of the most well-studied counterproductive policies in economics. https://www.brookings.edu/articles/what-does-economic-evidence-tell-us-about-the-effects-of-rent-control Imposition of rent control in SF reduced the number of rental units by 15% (with attendant increase in rents) for one recent real-world example.
DocWats
Sounds like they just haven't found what works yet. Rent control should be an easily obtainable and controllable feature. So I agree the attempts have failed, but that isn't to mean that it's a poor goal.
mardukkur
The goal of lower rents is obtained by adding more supply of housing in desirable areas. Rent control mandates decrease the supply of housing. They cause lots of other problems too but that's the big one that makes rent control counterintuitively even worse than doing nothing.
DocWats
Maybe we aren't talking of the same concept then, or I've misunderstood. Rent control could be done by having property assessors that limit how much rent could be on a unit. Have it be based on sq footage and features.
mardukkur
Yes, rent control. You impose a non-market price, landlords convert to condos to get market value, new construction of apartments doesn't happen, etc.
BluePeaSoup
Gotta agree… We lived in Santa Monica Ca, years ago with rent control & it did not work. The prices are insane there now.
Tom40
Seems to me that lower housing and rents would spill over to lower commercial real estate rents and prices, but what do I know. That would only benefit everyone who hasn’t already got theirs.
Erdanya
I know.. Welcome to America: individualism defined. 'Your problem isn't mine unless I want it to be.' This isn't true for everyone, but it's how it's built, and a big enough part of the country has been consistently told that providing people with the bare means of living will mean they won't want to work and will mooch off others, and that that's the downfall of society. After all: 'just look at what happened to the Communists'.. working examples be damned. It's extremely short-term thinking.
OtterlyMagnificent
Interestingly...I'd be a lot happier to work if I didn't have to work myself half to death to be barely not homeless. If I could work exactly as much as I want to work, I'd still work a 40 hour week. But I would NOT work a 60+ hour week to come home and have no energy to do anything else. I would create, live, and be happy.
wheresthehill
There’s an interesting background… https://religionandpolitics.org/2023/02/21/the-myth-of-american-individualism/
tounushi
So it's the frontier mindset misplaced in a sedentary and developed civilization? Egh, I think the only real fix for that would be practical space travel so anyone with a frontier mindset could actually go out to the new frontier to begin developing it.
PostalHeathen
Sadly, there's a lot of people who will happily pay more if it means that nobody else benefits.
MCEscherWasADouchebag
It's like tragedy of the commons except one guy keeps blowing up all the fish just so the rest can't have any either
chicoson
For them it's not enough that they succeed. Others must fail.
MeatPopsicleMultiPass
There is also this belief that if poor people are helped, it will make their life more difficult as they believe the middle class would be hit with the bill.
PostalHeathen
Which is BS, of course. Lifting the bottom lifts everyone. Even the billionaires, since more people would have disposable income to spend on Amazon.
callocosplay
What if we just eat the rich instead? That's how I imagine trickle down economics is supposed to work. You eat the rich, abolish the oligarchy, kick the religions out of the government, and set up universal Healthcare and UBI. I'm aware that's not really how the lie that is trickle down "Reganomics" works. Why people still think that old Alzheimers patient/former actor actually cared about anyone but himself is beyond comprehension...
BythepowerofPlank
that never made sense to me, it's strange to watch the instinct of self-preservation ignored so hard.
PostalHeathen
Spite is a powerful motivator.
demagreg365
If everyone can get healthcare, then hospitals and clinics will be crowded. If only the rich can afford healthcare, then they won't have to wait for anyone else
Override9636
It isn't about sense or logic. It's purely an emotional response based on fear from lack of resources, and a lack of education to understand the proper solutions.
Shaodyn
It's the "screw you, I got mine" mentality. Or maybe "I had to work hard for what I have and it wouldn't be fair to me for others to get the same things without hard work."
BythepowerofPlank
What an absolutely dreadful viewpoint.
TheMightyMoto
It's basically my life was shit so yours needs to be too.
breadedfishstrip
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality
MattJeffery
It makes sense if your brain develops on leaded gasoline
TheMightyMoto
In case you never read up on it. Look up what happened to public pools after desegregation. Some people care more about fucking overs then their selves.
TheGreatestMango
Yes. It's the attitude of a petulant child who breaks their own toys just so other kids can't play with them. And in many cases with American politics, it's more like a petulant child who breaks the classroom's toys so no one else can play with them....then insists they're entitled to exclusive rights to said toys even though many parents and teachers willing chipped in for them and it was agreed upon that the toys were for the whole class to share. Fucking conservatives man, they make me sad.
HashbrownMcGee
Perfect example
LaughingInTheFaceOfDanger
Honestly I think they suffer from some virus that feeds on empathy.
newsguycraigevans
Koshka89
#Cannibalize #EatTheRich
SoundFuture
Plutocracy, you're thinking of plutocracy. Which is what happened in Rome, the USSR, and has been happening in the US. The means of production don't matter if the people are deprived of their rightful authority.
riplikash
Thing is, just as many will complain that "communism doesnt take into account imperfect human nature and breaks down in the real world", the same is true of capitalism. It encourages the consolidation of capital and power and without strong controls is an unstable system whose end game is oligarchy and plutocracy.
SoundFuture
You're right. Capitalism done right is about harnessing the power of human greed and using it for the betterment of society. It's probably the best system devised for creating value, but it is in no way the 'best' by its own virtue. Other systems are better at other things. And it absolutely will 'eat your face'.
riplikash
Exactly. It's a tool. A problem solving algorithm. It shouldn't be an ideology. People dont generally describe themselves as a wrenchest or "believing" in binary trees. On of the big problems with capitalism being that there is a lot of benefit to those at the top to convert it into an ideology, and by it's very nature capitalism's empowers those are the top. There are some very complicated conflicts of interest built into the system. I also think we tend to give capitalism a bit too much credit
riplikash
for our modern prosperity. It's advent coincided with some remarkable technological innovation, which had a to positive impact on a lot of lives. But we were already seeing a long tend of technological acceleration pre capitalism. And for all of flaws, there was similar innovation under communism. Again, conflicts of interest. There is a lot of incentive for capitalists to take credit for any good thing that has happened, and they also have to power to do so.
pauli133
There's a strong contingent in America that cares more about seeing people suffer than about driving the economy.
OceanTraffic
It is very much a strategic move by the facist old party to brainwash voters into voting about things not related to socioeconomic problems mixed with rigging the system with means such as gerrymandering as well as making it difficult for minorities and people of low income to vote. And it's working.
Arbitrarynamehere
It's not about growing the economic pie for capitalists, it's about making sure they have the largest slice no matter what.
OnismPiglet
I'll never understand this, honestly. It's not a condition that only America suffers with either.
SarcasticComment
ironically they want to "return to the good ol' days" ... but not go back to when a store clerk could afford a modest home currently valued at $260,000.
kimbozo
They are also very stupid and propagandized into thinking papa corporation knows what's best for them
do7rkb5n
They're propagandized into thinking their "freedom" is at risk from all the things they call communist or socialist. OP is blaming the individuals when they need to be blaming whatever forces are driving the propaganda. That sort of generalization is very similar to what these idiots spout: demonizing a group instead of seeing people being manipulated.
Sirdan3k
They have been told and shown their entire lives that there isn't enough for everyone, not enough food, not enough shelter, not enough love, not enough happiness, not even enough suffering. They believe suffering is a finite thing and then another person suffers their own suffering is somehow lessened. When another is unhappy there is somehow more happiness available to them. Everything has been commodified so the infinite must be presented as finite.
darkninja2992
That's because we have an economy built on keeping people desperate, otherwise we get "labor shortages" for jobs where employers don't want to pay a decent wage
Shaodyn
Mostly the people they hate, but anyone who doesn't subscribe to their political ideology will do in a pinch.
EccentricNimoy
Crab bucket
lddiaz
Fucking awful, but 100% true.
ArmedandOverclocked
or more specifically they only care about their own special segment of the economy. The rest can burn for all they care.
timothyaolson2000
Those would be "Christians".
reallynotbob
It’s the “neither shall a man work nor shall he eat” thread of Sunday school. It was a reinforcing point for why Christians should support pure capitalism vs those godless anti-church communism during the Cold War. Philanthropy is for the Good to do, not the Government.
Alurkerforcedtologin
I'm pretty sure they believe that be forcing "signs" of the end days to happen, they believe they will be raptured when Jesus "comes back". A majority of religious people in this country believe that the end of the world will happen in their lifetime, and many of them are bloodthirsty and salivating for that to happen, to the extreme that they are willing to push things in the direction they think will hasten it. It's a death cult.
Bobgreytheclown
Think it’s more about control.
Skywatcher16
or literally anything else.their own best interest included in many cases. land of the free? nah. its land of the sociopathic maniacs.
IUpvoteFuturama
This is America using economical systems which have actually been proven to work is satanism /s
Flikker76
I saw it said that there are two types of parents. The first say "I had it hard so you should too." and the second say "I had it hard so you don't have to". I'd like to think it isn't so much about seeing "kids" (other people... the next generation... whatever) suffer as much as being oblivious to the second option.
TheDaharMaster
An economy? IN THIS ECONOMY??
BythepowerofPlank
or their own well-being, apparently. I have spoken to some of these folks over the internet, and i always said. ''but it means you, and your parents, and grandparents would also be kept safe from homelessness'' to which they seem dumbfounded
tweedyone
The American Dream was a great propaganda from the beginning and Manifest Destiny added another level of selfish assholery that wasn’t there prior. Many GOP Americans believe that they WOULD be the billionaires living the American dream IF people weren’t stealing it from their back pocket. Decades of lies have convinced people that THAT is what is holding them back from wealth, not the stuff that is ACTUALLY contributing. But it’s easier to just be in denial than admit you’ve been lied to.
vigilantej
its because of corporate propaganda and short shortsightedness, better to make 10% growth now and every one be poor later than invest in the future
TripleDane
"But I'm not homeless so what good is that"
ilikepot8os
It always amazes me they can't see a very probably series of events that leads them there either. Most Americans are one major medical diagnosis aways from homelessness. You get sick you can't work. Can't work you lose insurance, and housing . Lose insurance and you get sicker. It's a downward spiral. Cancer, mental illness, even a bad car accident that you didn't cause can start that spiral
TripleDane
The "fun" part if you ask them what they believe the American dream is. at any point they bring up you can usual find that America does it really poorly. Democracy... nope pretty poor scoring there. Freedom... again not so much. Opportunity to make something of you self. nah you are 200% more likely to be able to increase you social economic class in other "Socialist" countries as well... the issue I think is that the person has to drop the pride and admit USA is not the best in the world...
cantevenbewhenicantevenpee
That sounds like communism
Pixiecrap
Right wingers sure have special a way of making Communism sound sweet as hell.
BythepowerofPlank
CAN'T HAVE THAT!
Vanderhugen
Also in America our healthcare is tied to our employment so people are willing to put up with increasingly exploitative practices by their employer in order to keep their healthcare as many companies don't offer health insurance to new employees until they have worked for 3 to 6 months there
AnonOmis1000
I believe in AZ if you employ less than 50 people or some number you don't even have to provide insurance.
IWasGoingToMakeEspresso
That’s because THEY would never be homeless, obviously!
TharrickLawson
the belief is that wealth and success are because god likes you, so you can never lose it as long as you remain righteous. it's fucking terrible because the extension of that is that lack of wealth is because you're an inherently bad person and therefore your suffering is just.
IPoisonedDorcasMutton
Just world fallacy. Bad things only happen to bad people, so therefore nothing bad can ever happen to them.
holyhummingbirds10
Also the belief that wealth and success is a given if you work hard and "pull yourself up by your boot straps". So if you aren't wealthy, it's only because you are lazy.
BythepowerofPlank
oh joy, the christian version of the hindu caste-system.
JustinArnold
Weve got the hindu caste system and sharia law. Probably more systems that are 'bad' but we have them, just under some other name
Gestalt7
Conservative Jesus is fucking terrifying
rossimus
It's not so much that. It's that those people don't want to pay for other people's problems. It's also a selfish POV but it isn't as cartoonishly evil as you frame it to be.
rossimus
Lol people hate rational comments when they're in angry mode.
Arbitrarynamehere
"I don't want to pay for other people's problems" is contradictory to the entire idea of civilization and mutual aid that anyone who believes this deserves to be laughed out of a room. It is not a genuine concern.
rossimus
A wise man can entertain and understand an idea without adopting it themselves. That you can't even imagine how someone else might think about things says a lot about what kind of person you are.
Arbitrarynamehere
Read what I said again. I never said it was unimaginable, just that anyone who believes it is unserious and childish. A wise man can tell that someone is a fucking idiot and not give their bullshit the time of day.
rollercostarican
yeah except these same people don't realize how much of their problems are paid for by other people. They are under the illusion they benefit zero from the community.
Arbitrarynamehere
There's a better argument for voting for US liberals over conservatives from a purely selfish standpoint for the average working class person.
rossimus
People of both sides vote "irrationally" according to the other side. Conservatives will vote away benefits for them because they don't want to subsidize others and value looking out for themselves; liberals are willing to accept higher taxes in themselves to transfer money to often inefficient government programs because they value looking out for others. But both sides feel that they are willing to accept sacrifices because they hold certain principles.
Arbitrarynamehere
Except that one side objectively is better for improving material conditions for the majority of people and it sure as shit isn't from the conservative side.