KnowThePattttts
182577
1965
58
FBI Special Agent John E. Douglas once described Lawrence Bittaker as the most disturbing individual for whom he has ever created a criminal profile. Bittaker and Roy Norris, also known as the Tool Box Killers, committed the kidnapping, rape, torture, and murder of five teenage girls in southern California over a five-month period in 1979.
Some of the bodies of the disappeared girls were never recovered. Norris and Bittaker became known as the "Tool Box Killers" because the majority of instruments used to torture and murder their victims were items normally stored inside a household toolbox, like pliers, ice picks, and sledgehammers.
Particularly contributing to the killers' infamy, especially Bittaker's, is an audio tape the pair had created of their abuse and torment of their final victim, Shirley.
Shirley Lynette Ledford was just 16 years old when she was abducted by the evil pair. The audiotape of her torture, considered to be one of the most disturbing ever, was the most damning evidence presented at Bittaker's trial. It had been found inside Bittaker's van.
Prosecutor Stephen Kay forewarned the jury: "For those of you who do not know what hell is like, you will find out."
...
More than 100 people were present in the courtroom as the tape was played, and many members of both the jury and the audience wept openly upon hearing the contents, with several members of the audience either burying their heads in their hands, dabbing tears from their eyes or rushing out of the courtroom before the tape had finished. Some had run out to vomit.
Stephen Kay was reduced to tears and walked out of the courtroom. Weeping openly, Kay stated to the reporters gathered outside the courtroom: "Everybody who has heard that tape has had it affect their lives. I just picture those girls ... how alone they were when they died."
Bittaker laughed in court as the tape was being played. He considered the contents to be "real funny".
Detective Paul Bynum, the chief investigator involved in catching Bittaker and Norris, committed suicide years after the two were found guilty. In his suicide note, he outlined that one of his main reasons was his fear of the two ever being released from jail.
When Scott Glenn was preparing for the role of Jack Crawford in The Silence of the Lambs, he met with John E. Douglas who played for him that audio tape. Glenn wept as he listened to the recordings, and even changed his liberal stance on the death penalty, since then becoming a staunch defender of it.
This a transcript of the tape, very disturbing: https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/watchingrobertpickton88015/transcript-of-shirley-lynette-ledford-audio-record-t3312.html
Roy Norris himself said:
"We've all heard women scream in horror films ... still, we know that no-one is really screaming. Why? Simply because an actress can't produce some sounds that convince us that something vile and heinous is happening. If you ever heard that tape, there is just no possible way that you'd not begin crying and trembling. I doubt you could listen to more than a full sixty seconds of it."
In the closing argument delivered by the prosecution, Kay apologized to the jury that he was only asking for the death penalty, adding that he wished the law permitted him to request that the same suffering be inflicted upon Bittaker that he had inflicted upon his victims.
Stephen Kay calls the Norris and Bittaker case the most brutal in his 37-year career." Kay said the tape was so raw, everyone who has listened to it has suffered some psychological problems at some point.
Both killers outlived more than half of the mothers of the victims, half of the jurors in Bittaker’s case, the lead detective and many others involved in the trial. Bittaker and Norris died of natural causes a few years ago. Bittaker used to sign autographs for the other inmates in prison. His signature was "Pliers" Bittaker.
The other victims were Lucinda Schaefer (pictured here), Andrea Joy Hall, Jackie Doris Gilliam and Jacqueline Leah Lamp.
May they R.I.P.
ThanosTheGreat
That’s a big Oof.
mousezoey
Yikes… my husband just got a jury summons. Can you imagine having to serve on a case like this? Awful.
mediocredreams
In no way can I imagine sitting on this jury.
GroovyCrowley
Monsters are real.
Mediathug
I haven’t listened to it because I’m already crying too hard. There is no god. Also those guys should’ve been burned alive.
aCoolBreezeOnAHotSummerDay
I have to agree although I’m kind of against the death penalty bc of too many innocents. Drawing/quartering would be a good start for them.
iamthecomet
When it's this clear though, him laughing about it...
HootSloot
People aren't against the death penalty because they don't believe there evil people in the world.
HootSloot
You can justify anything against the worst most clearly guilty people you can imagine but it's rarely that cut and dry even when it should
HootSloot
Have to be. Innocence until proven guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt exists only on TV, in the real world we look up innocent people all the
HootSloot
Lock*.
Ponderpoo
Why do I allow my morbid curiosity to let me read shit like that link. Fuck.
senseicombs
In my field I have heard a few stories as disturbing as this 1. These stories hurt me for a long time, which is why I don't tell them 2 ppl.
Snooj
FYI they both died only a couple years ago. Lived most of their lives in prison but they still got to live, unlike their victims.
friendswithfire
Yeah I heard a little bit of it years ago and tho I love learning about serial killers, this is one case I don’t go near now
Hellstorm99
Early 2000's? Back when there were all those legitimate murders and rapes and snuff films on the net? Yeah, I never got over it all either
friendswithfire
It was about 2010-12ish I think
Ericcantona7
started reading that transcript. Had to stop pretty quickly. I couldn't imagine hearing the actual tape
friendswithfire
Yeah I think I almost threw up tbh. I was trying to desensitize myself to see if I was really interested in a certain career after college 1
friendswithfire
2 so I’d seen and heard some awful things but that’s def one of the ones that sticks with me still
KevBotRL
I played him in the Toolbox Killer special. He's haunting
catsandcoke
I wonder if the FBI profilers ever interviewed them. That would be good on Mindhunter if it ever returns.
mediocredreams
They did
thinkybrainpains
above comments say it was done
ucandcantunc
Do not listen to that….seriously, some things should not be heard
iluvplants
There's no freaking possible way that they only killed 5 people.
MAZDAnavyblue
I agree
mt77932
Absolutely
KnowThePattttts
agree
afsdpckapjadfkasef
Fucking hell poor girls
Lulabel73
With little communication back then everyone was just a “runaway”. So many missing people cases should be reinvestigated.
VitaminBeaPositive
Lots of girls did run away then, escaping sexual abuse at home that nobody would help them with.
Lulabel73
Yes and no one followed up where they ended up.
goddamimgur
This still happens today. In TX unless there's "evidence" of kidnapping its considered just another case of runaway.
Lulabel73
I’m not surprised
billymaditsdone
Don't click the link, it's not necessary to put your mind through that. Maybe @OP should put a warning.
spadinaaa
5 am on moving day for me. Biggest regret
Rustedgear93
Really wish I saw this sooner. Fucking hell, man.
GCRust
I'm nominally opposed to the death penalty. But in open shut cases such as this one, with audio the accused is laughing at? Send 'em to Hell
cantspellmanslaughterwithoutlaughter
Same here. These...beasts...weren't five black kids accused by a white female victim...or a mentally challenged POC abused by the system.
GCRust
Indeed. As I said, has to be ironclad open and shut. In those instances? Bailiff has a gun, Janitor has a mop.
cantspellmanslaughterwithoutlaughter
I hate to bring it up because of the Argentinian similarities, but have them thrown out of a USAF planes with no chute. No additional cost.
GCRust
Jet Fuel is expensive.
KAPTKipper
No way in hell am I clicking that link. Nothing personal, but shit this stuff is like the Paul Benardo killings.
Hellstorm99
I heard parts of the tape... back when, early 2000's. Don't click the link, don't search for the audio, just.... just fucking don't.
thefrisbeewasgettingcloserthenithitme
You made the right call. Don’t click on it.
BlahBlahTurtle
I still sleep poorly over the 19 children. Fearful for my own. I live in Australia. Couldn't pay me to read that and add to the weight
HellIsRoundTheCorner
I read most of it... You're better off.
HellIsRoundTheCorner
I read a book about him when I was a kid, it left marks.
jdrogerson0
Don’t click it only got like a tenth the way and I regret it.
ErkTheJrk
I read some. I wish I didn't. Holy shit. Holy shit that's messed up.
MindfulAmnesia
Yeah I regret even the cursory scan. Pretty much ruined my night and I doubt I’ll ever forget it now. Beyond disturbing, incredibly horrific
Arcrosis
Im autistic with an iron trap memory. I have an itch to know things, in this case i think ill stick with the itch.
MindfulAmnesia
Stay away friend. The itch is definitely not worth the scratch.
rowingrowingrowing
No one needs to hear that fucking tape or read the transcripts. Seriously. Why the fuck post that?!?
goforthandconquer
then dont click it. nobody's fucking forcing you.
rowingrowingrowing
I’m not going to click it, but I don’t want some incel with an AR15 and a grudge against women getting a fucking hard on. Show some decency.
goforthandconquer
decency is informing people on facts, not looking the other way because it's uncomfortable. you worrying about "hard ons" is a you problem.
JoyGrail
Oh Lord, they are indeed pure evil, they should have suffered first before they die. I just can't imagine the pain victims suffered w/ them.
Thephedora
Jesus Christ. How do you restrain yourself from at minimum not bursting in pure rage at the psychopath?
TasteOfNoise
Psychopaths are an interesting group. Most psychopaths are productive, law abiding citizens. Only a small percentage become monsters
Fuckweasel
In footage of this w/ audio you can hear the recording of the girl being tortured being played for the jury, it is beyond description.
mediocredreams
Look up to my reply to @calvarysword
mediocredreams
Can’t do that. I read the transcript. That was enough to give me nightmares
wazeewa
I can't even do that
mediocredreams
It was traumatizing without the sound. I’m in pain.
wazeewa
I will take your word for it and offer my sympathies that you were exposed to such evil. Take solace in that they're dead now.
smithdogg22
For anyone doubting the death penalty, cue up the tape!
mediocredreams
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/watchingrobertpickton88015/transcript-of-shirley-lynette-ledford-audio-record-t3312.html
ThatNoPicklePeeThatNoPumpARum
I'd rather they rot in jail for life than have innocent people murdered by the state.
BenderRodriguz1010
Is that a thing that's available?
LAMovieDesign
I’m against the death penalty because we’ve undoubtedly executed innocent people that did no crime.
ByJoveByJingle
What an idiotic statement.
MissSiesta
Yeah, no video would change my mind. There are worse things than the death penalty.
Crazywelderguy
I don't trust 12 randos to make the right decision is the problem. People are incredibly stupid sometimes. While of course exaggerated 1/
Crazywelderguy
for entertainment, "What about Pam" pinpoints how corrupt or stupid our 'justice' system can be. That is why I don't support the 2/
Crazywelderguy
death penalty. Because I'd rather serial killers die of old age, than kill innocent people who are victims of a flawed legal system.
3rdoption
Most people live never knowing when or how they will die. Monsters on death row know exactly when to expect an easy, painless death.
mediocredreams
And that is their power. We need to take that power from them. Death row neds to be a roulette.
crushingbore
That's what Dahmer thought.
haggerton
That's an easy problem to solve.
smallfrie32
Except they don’t. Oftentimes the date will be moved around due to legal issues, material issues, etc. Living constantly unsure of when
smallfrie32
You’ll be killed can be considered cruel and unusual punishment, which is against the 8th amendment (assuming US)
patapof
Most don't doubt the death penalty, they doubt the system that gives the sentence
mediocredreams
Fuck them
mediocredreams
And I’m a liberal. I’m a person. Fuck the people who can’t see these people have to die.
TzimisceProctologist
They did die. In prison, where the general public was safe from them.
PucksAndLiquidLuck
I would upvote this 1,000 times if I could.
RTK4740
RetrogradeLlama
For anyone endorsing the death penalty, go out to the Innocence Project and read about 250 men (so far) released from death row based on DNA
cantspellmanslaughterwithoutlaughter
But these guys were guilty...beyond a reasonable doubt.
mediocredreams
If there is a RECORDING OF RHEAE TWO SADO-MASOCHIST DEAMONS KILLING THIS INNOCENT GIRL, they are not innocent. I don’t care WHO THEY ARE.
mediocredreams
People on death row last YUEEAARRSSSS. PLENTY OF TIME TO FIND OTHER EVIDENCE.
smallfrie32
“It’s okay to put them on death row even if they’re innocent. They might be exonerated later”
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bilbomilbotiko
t
Spiked
ah yes, Imgur - where all discussions are rational and thoughtful within 140 characters
mediocredreams
I was deleted. ?
SenfinaZeit
Sometimes we comment chain!
rumandbass
Can we study the brain chemistry of these people? What allows them and moves them to do this?
NZSheeps
On the bright side, they're both dead https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Bittaker_and_Roy_Norris
threenotch23
Every day for their life stretch they should’ve had an 8d nail driven into a bone in some location of their body. Every day.
PrincessWasabi
Damn they didn’t deserve to live
wazeewa
Some people in this world truly make me wish Hell was a real place.
MrJwinkyface
They both died in ways that are totally unfair. They deserved hell
NZSheeps
I'm sure that's on the cards, too.\
verethy
Sadly both got to live a life, even if in prison, to be over 70.
Kopar
I can't imagine listening to that tape. Just reading through the transcript was regretful.
LAMovieDesign
Yeah, it was tough to get through. I just can’t wrap my head around that kind of evil. How people can be that cruel and have zero empathy.
Kopar
Yeah, they're broken in the worst possible, irredeemable ways
wazeewa
I can't even bring myself to click the link.
midrealmknight
Don’t click it
wazeewa
I've seen enough comments here from those who have. Would rather not see true evil.
midrealmknight
And don’t even look at their Wikipedia page. There is too much detail there for peace of mind. I am still bothered a day later.
wazeewa
I glanced at it but didn't really read a whole lot of it. I figured I'd be better off just leaving it at that.
URNSHOW
I think an amped up, supercharged version of "eye for an eye", would be the ideal. If unequivically found guilty of the crimes these two>
johnnyvulture
like the Chinese "torture of 1,000 days". Each day one body part was removed, the goal being to keep the subject alive the full 1,000 days
URNSHOW
Something like that. Let them understand first hand, the pain they inflicted upon their victims.
URNSHOW
Committed, as they were, they should die, with no waiting, in a more gruesome drawn out way than in which they killed their victims. >
URNSHOW
Somehow, Bittaker, I think wouldn't find it so funny anymore, especially when you keep bringing him back from death to continue on. >
URNSHOW
Frankly, if you've been "beyond a shadow of a doubt", found guilty, then why offer "life in prison"? At most 1 year and then >
URNSHOW
Removed from existence. In a manner that matches the way you ended a life.
smallfrie32
Because evidence findings change, and the idea that we all have right to life. Even the worst of us. How many folks have been sentenced to
EroticZombiePants
It's really rare that 2 psychopaths team up to kill.
nosaucesbutapplesauces
Like, how the fuck did they even start that conversation? I’m morbidly interested.
Jerojero
There is a podcast called Morbid. They covered these two really well. I will warn you though. It’s a tough listen.
ImgurPlz
You’ve never been to 4chan or Facebook groups i see…
crushingbore
There's hundreds of them working together in congress.
ztygs
JFC, this is dark but it got a chuckle from me.
SlabMeatChest
uponstrangeshores
Wtf man I'm just trying to chill out a bit before I start working. If I wanted to read about this kind of misery, I'd watch the news.
KierCalhen
Seriously. There are plenty of podcasts and shit for this. The whole world likes drama and doomscrolling apparently.
EdoubleLIOdoubleT
I agree... and constantly get downvotes for saying similar... just know you're not alone, regardless of the numbers you get
EdoubleLIOdoubleT
I mean.. this is rough... but imgur isn't the place for just some relaxing atm... death and destruction are constantly on display it seems
uponstrangeshores
You're not wrong. I have a brain that soaks in anything I come across. Hasn't been fun lately.
EdoubleLIOdoubleT
Same... but I get told "just scroll over it" or "leave if you don't like it" or a new one today "you're trying to suppress information"...
KnowThePattttts
nobody forced you to click on the post or read anywhere past the title lmfao
EdoubleLIOdoubleT
I don't understand comments like this... were they supposed to be telepathic and know where it was going? I know it becomes obvious, but dam
Cavalrysword
As an ex-cop, I can attest that there are truly evil people in the world. I also know that we overuse/misuse the death penalty.
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JustaLawAbidingCitizen
Fucking what?
JustaLawAbidingCitizen
I oppose the death penalty, but not for any moral or ethical reason. I think it's too easy. I think it should be hard labor for the rest of
JustaLawAbidingCitizen
Your days. If you work, you eat. If not, you starve to death. No days off, never ending in your contribution to society until you die.
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mediocredreams
For any individual who intentionally goes to any school to cause harm. CAN YOU SAY THE SAME? -2
mediocredreams
One of the persons who shot up Westside school tried to get a gun permit years later because he was out of prison because his juvenile >
mediocredreams
Records had been sealed. Luckily the person in Arkansas knew the story, and even though the records had been SEALED, he refused to sell >
Dannyalcatraz
I’m personally opposed to the death penalty- for many reasons- but acknowledge that reasonable, moral people can differ on this. If society
Dannyalcatraz
is going to have a death penalty, I would assert that it should ONLY be available when guilt is not in doubt, only the level of culpability.
Dannyalcatraz
See Colin Ferguson, as an example.
smallfrie32
Except can you really ever be 100% sure that the guilt is in no doubt? Pre-DNA findings, I’m sure folks were 100% sure of guild
smallfrie32
Guilt*
Dannyalcatraz
Yes, you can be- that’s why I mentioned Colin Ferguson. He was captured in the process of killing several people when his intended victims
sharikov
I firmly believe some people deserve to die. I also believe that executing an innocent person is literally the most unjust thing imaginable>
sharikov
That alone is enough to take death penalty off the table for me. If it means that some horrible people live long lives in prison, so be it.>
daftpumpkin
Preach!
sharikov
The protection of the innocent is the supreme goal of anything that purports to call itself justice.
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mediocredreams
Refused to sell the Westside shooter a gun, because he recognized the person, even though he had changed his name. Thank god.
magicrhombus
Yeah the problem with the death penalty isn't that nobody deserves it. It is that we can't trust the state to always get it right. ->
magicrhombus
Letting monsters get old in jail is an acceptable price to pay for not mistakenly executing innocents.
DocWino
If your an ex cop you’ve covered for some of them. Cops and criminals have the same motivation, just chose different professions.
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Syxcfaq
I don't actually disagree but I'm not willing to condemn innocent men to death just to make sure some men receive vengeance.
mediocredreams
But these aren’t innocent men. There are recordings of their voices , and hers while she is being tortured!
Syxcfaq
It's not that some people aren't so vile they don' deserve to die or that we question their innocence but that as a society we have no right
mediocredreams
Innocent men? There is a recording of them torturing her!! Would it be different if it was a male? They were both sentenced to die
Zootsoot
Between the innocent men who’ve been convicted & the appeal process takes more than it costs to house them in general population? I’m with 1
Zootsoot
The families of a murder victims who say to put these guys to the mercies of the general population & take away the privileges. 2
Zootsoot
The families of a murder victims who say to put these guys to the mercies of the general population & take away the privileges. 2
Zootsoot
The life at the hands of fellow inmates beats one short lethal injection. Or keep Death penalty & just revoke solitary while they wait3
Salpinus
Yeah, and as long as death penalty is on the table it will be misused. Keeping someone isolated for the remainder of their lives is still a
Salpinus
worse than just being killed. It literally serves no purpose far as punishment goes. The killers won't enjoy their lives in prison when kept
Salpinus
isolated. It's actually considered torture in the European Court of human rights. But, the prisoners can't be kept with others bc of their
Salpinus
own safety. So isolation it is! We've had serial killers proved to be innocent, as they've been manipulated by police and psychs. Being fed
Salpinus
info that only law enforcement would know about. Then it's taken as irrefutable evidence in court. With modern tech I won't be surprised if
GentryFriedRichFillets
As one of those liberals that believes the primary purpose of prison should be rehabilitation, I fully accept some cannot/shouldnot be saved
SkamanSam
I still dont believe in the death penalty. Prisons should be for rehab. We need other places for those who cannot be.
FlatPlutoSociety
I'm not fundamentally opposed to capital punishment, but I definitely think it's practically misused to the point that it should be banned.
ShadowSquids
I believe some people can't be saved and may they rot in jail for the rest of their lives.
MiniMacropod
Prison generally serves three purposes: punishment of the convicted, rehabilitation, and the protection of society. Some must never leave.
Cavalrysword
Nobody knows how to do rehabilitation.
TheMagicalUpvoteFearie
This is why life in jail is actually until death in captivity, the rest of your life, in the Netherlands. It doesn't get sentenced lightly
SenfinaZeit
Personally I think a three strike clause is reasonable. Kill three people and you become eligible for the death penalty.
IHaveGreatKittenRecipes
That's actually pretty damn reasonable. 1, maybe 2 if there's a bystander, that might be heat of the moment. 3 or more is a plan.
ShadowSquids
I can't support it because I know that if it were allowed under any circumstances innocent people would be executed by mistake/carelessness.
Retrikaethan
humane treatment should only apply for humane crimes.
ephankrised
Nah, generally we are better than those we put away. Not always, but we should never decend to the level of those committing crimes
Retrikaethan
i have never understood the concept of "their level." it always seemed disingenuous at best, outright fallacious at worst.
ephankrised
Ok, consider that administering a cruel person's actions on an official level is giving a level of credence
Corrodias
The hard part is telling them apart and being absolutely sure. That said, there are some few cases like this where you can be sure, right?
KingXizor
DNA evidence being should automatically HAVE to be reviewed and be a requirement as part getting a death penalty conviction.
GentryFriedRichFillets
Indeed
Corrodias
Of course I don't have any idea how you'd codify that law. Death penalty is only allowed if you're extra super duper sure, yet a conviction»
Corrodias
is already supposed to be unanimous and beyond a shadow of a doubt from the jury, but of course they make mistakes all the time.
LaughingMan2Gig
I think Mindhunter on Netflix dealt with him a bit
kudasiNezuko13
What people won’t do to each other what people won’t do ?
catsandcoke
I missed that. Which episode?
Wheresmycodpiece
.
LaughingMan2Gig
Season 1.8 but just talking about tape he was listening to
TrizzNathaniel
Man, I wish that show was still going
itypewerdsonline
ya, netflix killing off another good show
Sweetcharade83
It’s not Netflix, David Fincher doesn’t want to make another season at the moment.
TrizzNathaniel
Thanks Dave.
itypewerdsonline
SwiftyGuy
“At the moment”?! It’s been like what 3-4 years now? -.-… Dammit!
Sweetcharade83
A long moment lol