CallmeJack02
89397
2962
1056
"but OP, that's islamophobia"
No, it's not.
islam is a faith that is centuries old, and like many other religions was created in a time when man understood little about the world and the natural processes that occur within it.
This in itself is not an issue, the issue is that unlike many other faiths, islam has failed to modernise with the times, even the catholic church will admit that the big bang created the universe and that evolution is the process that god created us through, but islam has consistently refused to modernise and has even actively punished those who tried to do so.
so OP, what the fuck does that have to do with isis? simple
the islam that isis practices is the same islam the prophet muhammed practised. The destruction and execution of people who won't convert, the destruction of non islamic art and architecture for promoting idolatry, the "marrying off" of captured women and children as rape slaves and "wives" the buggering of young boys, all done with the complete and total blessing of allah.
But OP, you're a white male in the west, what would you know about islam or the people's who lived in that area of the world?
I lived there since i was 3 weeks old, and only returned to the west to start secondary education at a boarding school. I've spent my entire life being told - mainly by the locals in the areas we lived - how dangerous it would be to go too far from the house, how this group on this street would come after me if they saw me, what they'd do to me.
Hell, when we lived in iran my house was molotoved twice on the anniversary of their islamic revolution, which surprise surprise turned the country into a theocracy and thoroughly rinsed the country down the shitter.
and one more point, here in the west we have freedom of speech and discussion; we can question and challenge any ideology we want without fear of reprisal. I'm not being racist, because Islam isn't a race, it's an ideology a set of ideas and beliefs and nothing more. If we're not allowed to question, to point out contradictions and stand up for our own beliefs, we're no better off now than we were in the dark ages when the catholic church burnt scientists for heresy.
tl;dr the islam isis practices is the same Muhammed practised
OatmealTheCat
@OP would do well to reference passages from the Qur'an to help prove his point.
Arturs1670
"Religious leaders" cherry pick out the teachings, that favor their own ideologies. That's a big problem.
HodorFirstOfHisName
Watch this, please. https://youtu.be/bV710c1dgpU?t=2m14s
AL3XST3VO
Incorrect. Isis have gathered renewed perceptions about Islam. Through significant people such as Sayyid Qutb who wrote his own 1/
AL3XST3VO
Interpretations about Islam. Muslim adherents then saw this as a renewed experience of the Islam faith as the old one was outdated 2/
AL3XST3VO
Unfortunately, terrorist groups such as Isis now use these newer teachings as their motives for attacks on non-muslim adherents 3/3
Subsound
No more so than the Westboro Baptist Church practices genuine Christianity
KevinAnselm
I dont remember WBC killing gays, cutting off heads, and raping children
OnlyHalfasInteresting
give them power, you´d be dead in no time.
MacRockatansky
Doubt it. They're mainly interested in baiting people into assaulting them so they can sue.
ikindacarebutimostlydont
Oh no. Random poster on imgur thinks he's an Islamic scholar.
GodEmperorOfImgur
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV710c1dgpU&feature=youtu.be&t=2m14s Yeah, let's hear it from an actual Islamic Scholar!
Jonnymarre
It ain't about religion, it's about power, plain and simple.
IronicUsername
TL;DR Every other religion can pick and choose which parts of their holy book they follow; but every TRUE follower of Islam follows [1]
NOINOON
Also known as the "no true scotsman"-fallacy.
IronicUsername
holy text to the letter, even the contradictory parts. [2]
Smallbrownrabbit
Fundamentalism in general is not a good thing
ArchMagos
3 words that mean you're dealing with a pain in the ass, fundamentalism, Orthodoxy, and radical.
Liquidation
Yep. Even some of the most peaceful religions are corrupt if practiced fundamentally. Ever read Under the Banner of Heaven?
CaptJeanLucDickhard
It depends on your fundamentals.
FluffyPuddles
Religion is an political invention, used to control the masses & functions best when it evolves with society.
RDLPunk14
A lot things aren't good. Many things sound good on paper but fail when put into use. On the main reason communism still doesn't work.
InfiniteSynapse
It never occured to me such people (fundamentalist) would exist. I can see now why it would be a problem.
Iamthemonkeymansowhatevercats
I'm a fundamental fundamentalist and take offense to that statement. haha
EMninja2
Fundamentalism is bad, extremism is bad, hypocrisy is bad.... where is anyone supposed to stand?
eskamobob1
it is not hippocratic to disregard teachings that dont fit with modern society,
thundercactus
Just slightly left of centre lol
jmartkdr
With empathy and compassion
HodorFirstOfHisName
It's only bad when the fundamentals are as fucked as Islam.
thundercactus
Any fundamentalism is bad. Just look at how many people tried to block gay marriage on religious reasons.
HodorFirstOfHisName
Fundamentalist Jainism isn't hurting anyone. This post isn't about fundamentalism. It's about Islam. Let's try and stay on topic.
TheReturnedLordLucifer
Indeed. A Fundamentalist Jain is a nice person.
GoodChange
Are there even fundamentalist Jains? I've met like fifty, all wearing leather belts and leather shoes.
TheReturnedLordLucifer
In india, probably.
Wastyvez
Yeah I'm sure the victims of Timothy McVeigh, Anders Breivik, FARC, M19, the Bologne massacre, the Tamil Tigers, IRA,.. feel the same.
Grapefruitspoon
Several of those had little to nothing to do with religion.
Wastyvez
If you think that religion has a monopoly on fundamentalism, then you are sorely misinformed.
HodorFirstOfHisName
Tim McVeigh is not the fucking same as ISIS. All the organizations you mentioned are political, not religious. Fuck off with this bullshit
TrijezniMujo
Does it matter, all them fuckers are fundamental. Sure, in politics, but does a religious bullet hurt more than a political one?
HodorFirstOfHisName
Why do people defend these fucking savages? It's okay to shit on Islam. Stop white knighting for them
Wastyvez
And pray tell, how is violence committed in the name of political fundamentalism more justified than in name of religious fundamentalism?
Howdoesthepostsmell
You mean political extremism. Like Russian nihilism. Please don't say "pray tell"; it's pathetic even if you were a true savant.
Wastyvez
Oh no the average jihadist has more in common with Timothy McVeigh as you'd think. Just as misguided, just as troubled. The only real 1)
Wastyvez
difference is that while TM acted mostly alone, jihadists are often manipulated into believing a certain narrative by parasites who prey 2)
HodorFirstOfHisName
For a bunch of psychos this sure is some jolly cooperation /a/BocBx
GoodOlZR
The way people talk about Islam it's like they expect it to have a complaint hotline.
Dunes8
Weren't Jews and Christians viewed as People of the Book?
GodEmperorOfImgur
Yep, which is why the Quran says that if they convert there must be no aggression towards them, and to view them as true brothers 1/2
GodEmperorOfImgur
and sisters under Allah. But if they resist then they are seen as apostates. 2/2
phobes
And apostates must be executed unless they recant after a waiting period dictated by the dominant view of the particular tribe.
cajuninjun
yes, and in islam Jesus and Moses are considered as important as Mohammed, they were all prophets of God
GoodChange
They're all important but surely they hold Muhammed to be the the most important
cajuninjun
some muslims may, yes, but according to the religion mo is last in a line of prophets who should all be honored the same
WhatRaySay
meh, long story short is that religion can be very, veeery easily twisted into hateful bullshit, and right now ISIS is all over that
GoodOlZR
This doesn't make islam the enemy. It makes fundamentalism the enemy.
GodEmperorOfImgur
*Wahhabism to be more precise, which is... surprise, a hardline strict interpertation of the Quran and Hadiths.
Virtuoso
Why not both?
GoodOlZR
Because making Islam the enemy only makes more fundamentalists.
Wastyvez
"But if I don't blame it on islam I can't justify my bigotry." -OP
Fahargo
What bigotry?
Wastyvez
If you need to ask that question then I doubt explaining it would do much good.
Fahargo
Right cause actually having proof of bigotry is not needed in this day in age to be called a bigot i forgot
Wastyvez
And for the record: OP is a bigot because his ignorant narrative ostracises 1.6 billion people by falsely portraying a radical minority 1)
Wastyvez
No because in this day and age you can't act like a bigot and expect to get away with it without being called out for it.
DoctorSpaceDog
What do you think fundamentalism is? If adherence to the "fundamentals" of Islam is the enemy, then yes, Islam is the enemy.
thundercactus
People are the enemy. If westboro baptist church became the state religion of the USA, you think they wouldn't burn down any other churches?
bamcockseverywhere
What if I'm a Christian and I just like to drag gay people behind trucks like ISIS does? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Shepard
DoctorSpaceDog
Then you either need to go to jail, or you're an asshole for trying to throw smoke and deflect the conversation.
bamcockseverywhere
edit: adherents, sorry
bamcockseverywhere
If adherence to the "fundamentals" of Christianity needs to go to jail, then is Christianity the enemy?
GoodOlZR
Looks like you had to work hard to not get my point there.
DoctorSpaceDog
What was your point? Define fundamentalism in your own words.
GoodOlZR
In practical terms blaming Islam is casting too wide a net. Blaming fundamentalists is covering the people actually causing problems. 1/2
DoctorSpaceDog
You didn't define fundamentalism. Explain to me in detail what you think fundamentalism is.
GoodOlZR
Blaming Islam will only create more fundamentalists 2/2
DoctorSpaceDog
Once again this seems to be an Islam-specific problem. We aren't afraid that criticizing Christianity will mobilize them to blow shit up.
TheGriggy
Anecdote evidence does not equal truth. How about you source your claims?
GodEmperorOfImgur
If you read about Wahhabism it's pretty clear that they follow a strict hardline interpretation of the Quran and the Hadiths.
NiceCatchBlancoNinoTooBadYourAssGotSacked
All religions have different sects and denominations. ISIS practices Islam less as a religion and more as a political system.
NiceCatchBlancoNinoTooBadYourAssGotSacked
To equate one group as practicing "true Islam" is like saying Catholicism is truer than Protestantism in Christianity.
NiceCatchBlancoNinoTooBadYourAssGotSacked
We're always ready to separate disparate parts from other religions as just being whacky outsiders but we wanna homogenize Islam.
NiceCatchBlancoNinoTooBadYourAssGotSacked
Its time to focus less on the religion and more on the cunts killing people and the circumstances that allow said cunts to gain power.
Miftan
Maybe not helping the people trying to modernize Islam is the problem, as opposed to saying 'This is how Islam is and always will be'
cajuninjun
also, if you look back at history, islam was very progressive until wahabism took over as a political system and fucked the whole ME
chatapokai
TLDR ops a moron and doesnt know what he's talking about
BuzzKiIlington
"Catholic Church will admit that the big bang created the universe" A Catholic priest laid the ground work for the whole theory (Lemaitre)
BuzzKiIlington
Not really anything to do with OPs post just a fun fact that people don't usually realize
kasaku
Muhammad didn't kill Jews and Christians if they didn't convert. So you clearly have no clue what you're talking about.
MirlindaZefi
I dont like to confront religious people but just shut the fuck up once. Just for once .
localbadboy
Hes like the rest of them, throwing shit on islam and they dont even bother to back it up with proof
MirlindaZefi
It is written in quran that all the hebrews and christians must be killed if they do not convert .
GodEmperorOfImgur
Technically it says any one, not just Hebrews/Christians.
GodEmperorOfImgur
Quran (2:193) "Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah(disbelief) and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . 1/2
cheekysheikhy
In war dummy. You don't expect to throw flowers in war, do you?
GodEmperorOfImgur
But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors." 2/2
kasaku
Yes, "Allah" meaning "god", which was the same god the Christians and the Jews worshiped.
GodEmperorOfImgur
Sure, good luck trying and get them all to agree on it though. Heck, we can't even get Arians and Chalcedonians to agree. :P
GodEmperorOfImgur
Or are you trying to argue that Christians already follow the teachings of Muhammad?
kasaku
They were worshipping the same god, just in different ways, which is why Islam referred to them as "The People of the Book" 1/2
babaorar
Uhh no. Absolutely wrong. First, there are specific rules for carrying out jihad. For one thing, jihad can only be declared by a (1/?)
GodEmperorOfImgur
Question: Do you agree that the Punishment set forth by Muhammad himself for various crimes, be they execution, stoning, etc are 1/2
GodEmperorOfImgur
good, and should be applied whenever possible? 2/2
babaorar
The capital punishment and the corporal punishment outlined in the Shariah may be considered barbaric and backwards but that is the (1/2)
babaorar
law of the land in Muslim countries. Now, is this done without checks and balances, today, yes. Because our leaders are corrupt and only
babaorar
look after their own interest. However, under Islamic law, like the actual stuff, there is a strict system in place before those punishments
babaorar
rightfully selected Caliph (a figure that has not existed since the end of the Ottoman Empire). ISIS has no claim to an actual Islamic (2/?)
babaorar
Caliphate under the rulings of Islamic jurisprudence. Second, ISIS has no regard for the laws of Jihad, namely executing prisoners (3/?)
babaorar
For dealing with prisoners of war, refer to the actions of Muhammad at the Battle of Badr. ISIS has time and again violated numerous (4/?)
babaorar
laws of Jihad as established by the Shariah. As for killing non-believers, the Quran itself says in Chapter 109 to say unto the (5/?)
babaorar
disbelievers that to you is your religion and to me is mine. In Islamic tradition Muhammad refused to have the Angel Gabriel turn to (6/?)
TheFlyingSatan
So, 'genuine' basically means 'fundamentalist' here? I dont think anyone would disagree that 'Isis is practicing fundamentalist islam'
CallmeJack02
given a fundamentalist faith is one simply stripped down to the core tenants, that doesn't dissuade my point
TheFlyingSatan
That's not what fundamentalist means. Fundamentalism is the -literal- adaptiation of the holy book of choice, big rules as small.
SomeDudeNurse
Except you cant make a theological explanation of the Quran comanding you to rape to make a captive a "muslim" woman?
BurgerMcBurgfacington
But there are only 5 core tenants. And none of them prove your point.
GodEmperorOfImgur
So you're saying that as long as you follow the five pillars, you can disregard ANYTHING else from the Quran or the Hadiths? Even if the 1/2
GodEmperorOfImgur
Quran itself says otherwise? 2/2
imfatfearme
There are some people that follow Islam that don't want to see the death of all non believers correct?
Fahargo
Most would be correct. but 8% of 1.5 billion is still a huge amount of people okay with suicide bombing in Islam's name
FirmAndPerkyIsBetterThanWideAndFat
But that's still 92% that aren't.
BoogaAndTheB52
Actually suicide bombing is definitely against multiple passages of the Quran. Also, genuine Christianity and Judaism if you know (1/2)
BoogaAndTheB52
anything about the bible is as bad as a fundementalist interpretation of the Quran. I mean they are all Abrahamic religions anyway. (2/3)
BoogaAndTheB52
Why the fuck does this shitty uniformed baiting keep reaching the front page? I am very nearly done with this fucking community (3/3)
BoogaAndTheB52
Also anecdotal evidence doesn't prove anything on its own.
HOOMANGUY
Yeah, by the same logic does the westboro baptist church practising real Christianity. They just do what is written in the bible.
GodEmperorOfImgur
No. By his logic, pre-Chalcedonians practice real christianity. :P
HOOMANGUY
But I bet you'd have a problem if anyone said that the WBC are the real christians, right?
CallmeJack02
actually im a deist, i don't hold any divine texts to be genuine
thundercactus
Problem being the bible is very open to interpretation with no one really having the absolute power to say "NO you can't fucking do that".
thundercactus
Because honestly, what's god gonna do? Smite you? Been waiting a few millennia for that to happen to someone.
SciGuy
Uh... Catholicism, for instance, is far more rigidly structured than Islam
thundercactus
A lot of sects for a rigid theology. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outline_of_Christian_theology#Controversial_movements
SciGuy
And yet there's still a Pope but no Caliph
thundercactus
Several sects reject the idea of a pope, some just ignore his mandates. It's not a unified religion by any means.
dietderpsy
There is less than 50 people in WBC, ISIS are massive in comparison.
mandaloriantimemachine
Early Islam tolerated other religions...for taxes
twentyfourcharacterslong
NO, my Muslim GF believes in evolution and Big Bang. She thinks God was behind both as do many of her Muslim friends and family.
graehall
TLDR:you've got an axe to grind & are ignoring the major interpretations that are followed so you can claim ISIS practice "true" islam. Pfft
GodEmperorOfImgur
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV710c1dgpU&feature=youtu.be&t=2m14s "The Major interpretation."
Turin25
Did @op just interview himself in this post? Can we do that?
MrBananaBeak
It's how every fool makes his argument. Takes "begging the question" to a whole new level.
Wombatfisher
Let's go to @wombatfisher in be field to find out. Wombat?
Wombatfisher
Yeah, yeah it seems like we can do that. Back to you, @wombatfisher.
consolepeasent
I applaud you
ImmortalAzrael
You missed a great opportunity to answer your own question.
Turin25
Darn it!
CanadianSith
It's not too late. Just refer to yourself as other Barry
tehruffledjimmies
Remember Barry, we can do anything
tehruffledjimmies
That's right other Barry, we can
Hakosukaz
Yes we can other Barry.
Ijustwannagohomeandeatcalzones
Haha was gonna say that
QuiveringKittens
Yes we can
thegarlicawakens
Well, there it is...
iupvotemorethaNidownvOTe
Apparently we can and that too without any conflicting ideas
valiumkitty
Hahaa fuck i think he did. Should.. Should we all start doing this? I like this.
GoodChange
I'll allow it.gif
SquirrelyTunic
He could have interviewed an empty chair at least.
Chaos2183
Leslie... you're doing it again... am I? I am...
Thephedora
We can, and do.
clevername13notfound
Points for "Can we do that?"
CallmeJack02
I think so
obscureusername
Nice
Volt1ighter
I like your moxy
57697a6f
How do I feel about this? I must admit that whilst I feel a little conflicted it worked for this post.
JasonD
I like to touche myself
elvichoperro
As in give yourself good comebacks?
JasonD
And then immediately acknowledge them, masturbatorily.
JasonD
Well played.
elvichoperro
As it is customary
Scahrossar
[Citation needed]
zakmonster
I'm Muslim but I'm not ISIS, though, what do I do @OP?
Cptmike
be isis
Josiahkf
fight for basic human rights with all of us & teach your children about modern society & give them the tools to be Muslims adapted to it.
KeeleonOhms
Realize that you've become civilized.
CyberMG
As OP said Islam hasn't done much to modernize. You could help fix that through the power of the human voice. Hippy cyber out, PEACE!
GodEmperorOfImgur
My advice would be, resist Wahhabism, Resist any Wahhabist tendencies in your local community, and... that's about it, with time 1/2
GodEmperorOfImgur
more moderate modes of Islam should naturally occur. 2/2
Squossifrage
He didn't say “all Muslims are with ISIS”, he said “it is wrong to claim that ISIS aren't Muslims”.
zakmonster
That's fair. But if I want to be true to my faith, the OP is saying the ISIS way is the only way. Is he actually an ISIS recruiter?
Squossifrage
He didn't say that either...
CallmeJack02
are you for the raping and enslaving of women, the destruction of idols that don't pertain to your faith
zakmonster
No to the first, but don't kinkshame, dude. Yes to the second, but only ideologically. I'm not a vandal.
CallmeJack02
well then you're a pretty bad muslim, you're ignoring direct orders of your holy prophet
Bennings
So anyone who doesn't fit under your definition isn't a muslim? No True Scotsman much?
zakmonster
Don't remember him ever telling me that, but sure thing. I guess I'll start with the raping and the vandalism tomorrow.
CallmeJack02
rapein the qu'ran 65;4 4;3 4;24 33;50 70;29-30. murder of non muslims in the Qu'ran 9;111 2;217 4;89 8;12 8;60
Verelse
Invite me to your Eid party.
zakmonster
It's long over and my family does it low key anyway.
Verelse
The next one, silly. But I'm already invited to two. They are also low-key but in our neighborhood and everyone is invited.
MenaceToSobriety
Read the entire Koran, ignoring what other people have to say about it, and determine whether you want to live by its teachings.
JudgeMentalCat
That's a stupid idea with any holy book. You can't literally read any holy book and get an accurate idea- there's hundreds of years worth of
MenaceToSobriety
"Other people" didn't mean to imply the inclusion of scholarly interpretation or advanced study. It meant "Don't go in with preconceived (1)
MenaceToSobriety
notions that have been polluted by the media and your peers' ignorant ideas about it."
JudgeMentalCat
historical context and academia and adjoint texts.
MostIndeedlySo
That's why you shouldn't read any holy books. They have nothing in them that has any worth in this day and age.
MostIndeedlySo
Every small tidbit of good you manage to find there can be found without any holy books.
MenaceToSobriety
And I didn't say "literally read." I said "critically read." I never recommend a literalist viewpoint on ancient religious text.
JudgeMentalCat
Actually, you just said "read the entire Koran", you never once used the word "critically"
MenaceToSobriety
*Meant. I apologize. My point remains. Reading the Holy Text of a religion for yourself is important, is it not?
CallmeJack02
well, are you for the execution of apostates?
zakmonster
Nope. Apostasy isn't a crime in my country, anyway.
CallmeJack02
but it is in sharia law. so again, i don't think you're being a very good muslim
Blobpie
You're being narrowminded Op. The world isn't black and white. There are many different flavours of Islam, some good, some bad.
whowantsthefirstreacharound
I'll have the rum and raisin flavour of Islam!!!
zakmonster
My entire life has been destroyed. Truly, you have swayed me with your words.
CallmeJack02
you're free to believe what you want, but don't put yourself in the dark so willingly
GoodOlZR
Go to the big muslim meeting and raise the issue.
Arsikere
and then he gets beheaded
imaginecakes
Do you want to @OP to get killed?
GoodOlZR
OP's not smart enough to find the big Muslim meeting.
bringbakfirefly
Strap up.
Fahargo
Nothing. Live your nice modern life.
zakmonster
I like this cool and good advice. Thanks.
Fahargo
It's really the best thing anyone could do. Every Muslim that lives a happy successful life is a slap in the face to ISIL and their 1/2
Fahargo
proves them wrong
Fahargo
ideals. They depend on Muslims down in a rut who think the world is against them and Islam. Every single person who lives a happy good 2/3
zakmonster
Basically, what does the OP expect me to do with this information? Join ISIS because they're actually 'true Muslims'?
KeeleonOhms
You're supposed to understand that your people have progressed into civilization.
SirSidneyRuffDiamond
As a white Englishman, no do what every Muslim I have ever met in my working life has done, offer food and be a nice person
TraceofSpades
I don't know you, but I think much of the fear of Islam is rooted in its inability to "assimilate" to things western culture holds 1/?
TraceofSpades
As iddals. Freedom of speech, women's rights, things like this where, anyone can see, Islamic culture has lagged behind. What I think 2/?
TraceofSpades
Balance your faith with our culture, and assimilate to the degree necessary for peaceful coexistence in society. 4/4
TraceofSpades
You, and anyone of any faith for that matter can do, is find ways to set an example for both Muslims and Islamaphobes that shows you can 3/4
Squagglenater
Live your own life the way that makes you happy, don't hurt anyone else in the process. Even if a book says its okay.
SP0OooO0KY
I feel like every holy book has some less than savory comments on how to treat other people
HishamASA
but the book doesn't, I follow Mohammed with every footstep and I'm not ISIS
ThisIsYourConscienceSpeaking
So you are ok with grown adults marrying 9 year old girls?
HishamASA
It's forbidden to marry an underage person, aisha wasn't, she already passed puberty and is mentally ready and conscious about it
roobooroo
You could leave islam
EvenSpeedwagon
Abandon the moral code you built your life around. Im an atheist, but my theist comrades often cannot frame moral issues without 1/2
EvenSpeedwagon
Turning to god. The idea that you ask someone to abandon their way of life is morally repugnant and hypocritical. Basically. Fuck off.
roobooroo
It's not immoral to ask someone to change their valuesystem if said valuesystem is immoral. It's not hypocritical, why the fuck would it be?
Xecryo
Then how do you respond to the fact that they have violated several passages and/or dictates of the religion?
GrumpRump
If you want to learn more about "moderate Islam" Crowder does an excellent explination of it when h talks about talk Islam's channel
FullyGroanAdult
I respond by saying: if you only look at the early passages, you might be right. However consider the later passages, and the Islamically
chettlar
It's kind of funny because the peaceful passages were apparently before the Jews and Christians refused to convert. The violent ones after.
FullyGroanAdult
essential principle of "Abrogation". The final word of Islam is militaristic and intolerant, and specifically overrides any gentler passages
hamsto24
Good on you, unfortunately not many people know that the Qur'an isn't in chronological order.
HousePest
Ha +1
FullyGroanAdult
@hamsto24 is completelty correct. Apart from the 1st chapter, all the rest are ordered by length (! seriously !). There is no sequence to
GrumpRump
And the fact that as he took more stuff as a warlord he became more violent and wrote more violent stuff for his people to follow.
legonel
Later passages trumpf Early passages. So the later in the quran is, the More right it is.
AnAngryOtter
They use abrogation to remove contradictions, which gives you what you currently see.
AnAngryOtter
The way they do it is the "logical" way: If there is a contradiction, the passage that comes later in the chronology is the vald passage.
AnAngryOtter
And due to the chronology of the koran, all the conquest, rape, pillaging, jihad etc related passages happen later in the chronology.
anarkos
In Islam, if you kill infidels or die killing infidels you are forgiven of your violations. All religions have some funny absolution clause.
emilyvin
Like most religions, it's got a lot of contradictory statements in there. Pretty hard to follow all of the tenets exactly.
Xecryo
Well in that respect it seems to me it's hard to claim any method of following a religion is "genuine". I suppose at most you could say>
Xecryo
emilyvin
Hence why no religion is great :D
HeyGuysAmIRelevantYet
And Westboro Baptist Church work on Sundays.
onthe6ball
they're just ignored jerks. The don't behead or boil people in tar
LetsTalkAboutFacesitting
Malaeus Maleficarum. Spanish Inquisition. Crusades.
Stupidpeoplearestpid
Just like moderate Muslims in the west, nobody follows their holy book exactly at this point
FullyGroanAdult
Well, actually, they really haven't. It's absolutely trivial to find instructions to carry out military evangelism.
Xecryo
Except there is in fact a passage dictating to protect Christians and allow them to worship and they haven't done that. Also the passages>
Xecryo
Xecryo
FullyGroanAdult
Ahhh no, only if they pay a special tax, accept that they cannot build churches, be visible, etc etc. In practice, most competing religions
SomethingOffensive
No religion is without its own contradictions.
Butane9000
Because they're following examples set by Mohamed who raped pillaged and enslaved the middle east in his time and massively set then back.
bringbakfirefly
Easy. Everyone violates their religion.
thegreatheed
Religion expects everyone to violate itself. That's kind of the point.
GoodChange
Not atheists
GrumpRump
And that was quite violent. I don't remember the word for it but it's the concept that his teachings were more important later.
CallmeJack02
the faith contradicts itself with great regularity, just like any other imperfect work of man.
kasaku
In other words your whole rant is nonsense and there's not such thing as "genuine" Islam.
eskamobob1
Correct. ISIS practices a version of islam supported by the text, but calling it more genuine than many other interpretations is nonsense.
kaizervonmaanen2
There are no contradictions in the faith, when they have violated the passages they have not claimed that it is allowed by the faith
kaizervonmaanen2
For example executing people by burning them is not allowed by the religion and ISIS have not claimed that it is allowed they just avoid it.
furiousfish
So essentially you're admitting that this is a circular argument.
BourbonBuck
*facepalm* confirmation bias much? OP is making many points not just the singular. It's an extremely complex and nuanced situation obviously
Gawky
like the part about stoning none virgins in the bible?
WhyAreYouASmugBellend
We should let women write the bible, koran, and other story books. :)
WhyAreYouASmugBellend
AM I being downvoted for saying women should write religious texts, or for calling them "story books"? Either way it's pretty funny.
TSwit
But... they're already written...
CallmeJack02
damn man that'd only make em even harder to follow /s
ShaggEllis
JohnnyCaldwell
Basically the world would be a more peaceful place in religion just disappeared.
PipMcDicstamp
Hail Zorp!
mmmnougat
No. People will find other ways to create inside and outside groups. If not religion, then sports. If not sports, Pokemon.
IStoleALoafOfBread
In most cases, religion acts as a social bond. The more social bonds a person has, the less likely they're to take part in criminal activity
IStoleALoafOfBread
Travis Hirschi - Social Bond Theory
JohnnyCaldwell
Or how about we eradicate all religions except Hinduism an Buddhism cuz it seems like those are the most peaceful lol
nightof11bangbangs
I went to high school with a caldwell.... you from Missouri?
JohnnyCaldwell
Nope lol
iotto24
Although I do believe religion generally causes violence, I also believe without religion, man would find new reasons to kill each other 1/2
iotto24
2/2 Look throughout history, we've killed each other in mass numbers for a whole host of different reasons. Even now we are doing the same.
TheFragnatic
Yes, without a doubt we use other reasons to kill each other. But religion gives an easy and "fast" way to brainwash a large population.
eclect0
Yeah, it's not like there's ever been a violent, warmongering society that denounced religion as the "opiate of the masses" or anything.
igotmad
If you're referencing WW2, those country leaders used the title of God on themselves to brainwash their citizens etc. Easy dictatorship.
SKBPinkie
You've just destroyed everything about your post with that response. Good job.
Xecryo
Then it seems to me you cannot actually call any method of following a religion genuine. At best you could say it's X% accurate.
aerodynamit3
thats so convoluted.
igotmad
That's because every religion is man made. Even the regions before christianity and islam were man made.
CallmeJack02
it's almost as if the divine message they claim to bring is bullshit
blanco6969
Are you Ricky Gervais?
Xecryo
Not claiming it to be but then it would be just as fallacious to call it genuine as if it matches the original format. It can't by nature.
Arsikere
what he's saying is they haven't modernized, bottom line. they are still doing it as it was done 1400 years ago
Mrwubbles
You made little to no sense with this comment. Try once more
AhhYesACleverUserName
edgyyyy
Laundromata
No god or kings. Only men.
IronicUsername
You seem to be going out of your way to miss the point.
BourbonBuck
You're missing the point too. He's saying that every religion fails to follow their law as well as every set if laws have hypocricies
TSwit
Never heard anyone accuse any religion of that ever
JasonForge
MAN, I really like you.
jkbsn
Now you're just invalidating everything you've said. You aren't using very analytical language here, so your argument just falls to shit.
BourbonBuck
That makes no sense....
GrumpRump
The faith contridicing itself isn't the problem it's that the stuff Mohammed said later in his life is what he wanted them to follow.
BirdOPrey5
Even the most religious Christians have to violate several passages of the Bible because of contradictory information.
HatsAreEssential
One of the core beliefs of theologically educated Christians is the fact that the Bible doesn't contradict itself, so...
BubbleConglomerate
My core belief is what you believe is false because what I believe that is true and I believe you're wrong.
Xecryo
Exactly so how can it be called "genuine"?
BourbonBuck
Because that's what faith is. They believe that their interpretation of God out of the 5000 other religions is the inky right way of underst
BourbonBuck
Understanding*
cleveranduniqueusername
I think in this context "genuine" should be replaced by "original"
Xecryo
Even then it'd be a difficult argument to make. Maybe at the most we can take the passages where Mohamed speaks directly and compare>
Xecryo
AloofAstronomer
This is true. if you follow a religion, odds are you are going to violate the rules of it. I think the point @OP is trying to make though1/?
AloofAstronomer
is that in Christianity, they can be forgiven without an issue if they want. but Islam hasn't modernized enough to allow for that.
gamer2k4
Like what?
iuploadbearpics
You won't get an answer. It's a knee jerk response.
vejket
http://www.biblestudytools.com/nlt/leviticus/passage/?q=leviticus+15:19-33
TokensWorth
There is an answer for that. However you have to understand "context". It appears you dont.
vejket
Bible has many weird rules this is just one of them. I don't remember context anymore since i haven't read bible in almost 10 years.
finnthepokeman
Wear mixed fabrics or eat certain foods in certain days. This is just what I've picked up from the religious side of my family hope it helps
TokensWorth
There is an answer for that. However you have to understand "context". It appears you dont.
finnthepokeman
Yeah that's fair, like I said it's just bits my family have spoke about, I'm non practising so not my thing, just thought it might help
finnthepokeman
Stuff like what you can and can't eat, and can and can't wear. I can't really go more specific bc idk, but I think it's bad to *
gamer2k4
1) A lot of Old Testament stuff is cultural laws for a specific group of people, not universal laws for a religion.
MostIndeedlySo
Former Christian here. That's not how it goes in the bible. NT overruled OT so the clothes, food, etc rules don't really apply.
MostIndeedlySo
Regardless, idiotic rules but that's religion for you.
HousePest
So can I just ask, if NT overruled OT, why is homosexuality even still an issue? The NT doesn't, or scantly mentions it at all.
finnthepokeman
Fair enough, cheers, hoped to educate got educated myself call that a win
gamer2k4
2) Sort of like how there are dress restrictions and the like in the US Army, but they don't apply to America's population overall.
CatzEyes93
Thank you! I get tired of trying to explain this to folks that dont come for the lesson.
maysj18
Thank you.
pirate4lifes
Do you have any real examples or are you just regurgitating popular opinion?
tehwilsonator
Shellfish. Mixed fabrics. Stoning children for talking back to their parents. Finding the examples is not the hard part.
Dreigiau
There's several examples in the bible of commandments to kill others and yet doesn't "thou shalt not kill" sound familiar?
Dreigiau
well, not literal commandments, but "you shall do this" things.
igotmad
Thou shalt not kill is a commandment. But it's old testament so i don't know why people still use the 10 commandments
newsguycraigevans
Technically we're not even supposed to go to the bathroom.
Xecryo
I understood that reference.
eclect0
Or just accept that not every out-of-context sentence you randomly pull from the Bible is a commandment.
igotmad
Every person has a different interpretation/context they think is correct. Doesn't help to say a single person's is correct because famous.
eclect0
There's a clear hierarchy though. "Love your neighbor" is second only to "Love God," so if obeying another commandment causes you to 1/2
eclect0
violate that you're doing it wrong. 2/2