TheMoonBnuuy
2264
44
7
I'm addressing fan reaction, not in-universe reactions.
Dec 29, 2025 8:55 PM
TheMoonBnuuy
2264
44
7
I'm addressing fan reaction, not in-universe reactions.
KnightWithShiningCamera
Deadpool854
KineticBucket
The Lower Decks episode about it was fantastic, mind you
Az663
After her return...
...first the therapy or the trials? XD
Drew442
Well Scar was the one who actually ended their lives so....
Rubbishtheresnoway9peopleusetaniwhida
Does tuvix have a passport?
A single shred of ID ?
Is there any reason to believe it has the necessary mental stability to function as a starfleet officer and will continue to have that stability?
Two valuable officers were lost when this transporter malfunction was bought into existence.
If two valuable officers were being held hostage by an armed third party and all attempts to reason with them failed no level of force would be considered to be too much to retrieve them.
gtotherizzle
Janeway was right. Tuvix wasn't an individual
morrochbeniothe
it come down to consent. The Nina chimera clearly had very limited cognition, it couldn't consent one way or the other. Neither could Nina and Alexander due to age or species. Tuvix not only was clearly self aware and able to self actualize and able to understand what was going on, he actively chose his current life only for that to be forced away from him. Did Neelix and Tuvok choose to be combined? No. But Tuvix was able to choose to live and was denied that choice.
TheMoonBnuuy
The choice of one person to deny two people their right to continued existence while he takes advantage of and inherits both their estates isn't quite the ethically sound claim you think it is.
Let's also not forget that killing the chimera, which didn't articulate a desire to die, was unilaterally killed, ending any chance of separation. And if separation were possible, it would have been both done and lauded despite the chimera clearly not articulating a desire to be separated.
TheMoonBnuuy
If we operate on the principle that "the consent of those who can consent matters more than the consent of those who can't consent" then we end up with all kinds of metaphorical nukes, ethically speaking. for example... a drunk, unconscious, or legally minor person can't consent, so the sober, awake, adult person's consent is what matters.
piperdude
That guy turned in a top 5 Star Trek performance, then was never seen again.
SunnyKontucchi
EverNotRelevant
kwyjjibo
Nina and the dog is considered that because it was a choice by Shou. Tuvix was an accident and had no one directly to blame. The Tuvix situation is called an ethical dilemma. No choice is totally right, no choice is totally wrong. Janeway could have been called a murderer if she let Neelix and Tuvoc "die" just as easily. There is no truely right choice.
TheMoonBnuuy
Edward let the chimera die, on purpose. Fans treat it as mercy, not murder.
kwyjjibo
I don't know remember how it plays out in the various versions, but Scar kills her in Brotherhood. Yes it is seen as a mercy killing, but she is also shown as a barely functional, which tilts the scale in the ethical dilemma.
TheMoonBnuuy
My takeaway from what you just said is "the chimera had disabilities, which makes killing it ethical"
Shaows
Tuvix wanted to live, Nina wanted to die, that's why she let Scar kill her.
sevenfingerman
Could you imagine how Full Metal would be different if Ed could have fixed her.
TheMoonBnuuy
It would have turned Shou's chimeras into a party trick, and eliminated a lot of the moral issues with what he was doing for one...
totallynotatimetraveler
alternate argument. she was saving tuvok from spending the rest of his life with nelix
TheMoonBnuuy
Truly a heroic act.
ZeroLyfe
She was also saving all of us from having to spend the rest of the show with Tuvix.
Az663
People, who like children, tend to like Neelix. :P
totallynotatimetraveler
does trump approve of this message? /s
Az663
Do pedos... LIKE children...?
totallynotatimetraveler
i mean... one could argue that both ways
Az663
Let there be no more than one. ;)
Jimthebutler
The real question is whether the life of tuvix overrides the lives of the other two starfleet officers. Id say that tuvix does not have the right to end the life of those two officers by taking those lives as/for their own. Tuvix didnt ask to be created, but those officers didnt consent to being joined for life.
getadogupya
Tuvix did nothing to bring about the situation he found himself in.
TheMoonBnuuy
DandyLion23
Added factor is that they are stranded in the bunghole of the universe without any support. She needs all the capable men she can. If that's enough to negate the murder...
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[deleted]
TheMoonBnuuy
"My life depends on these two people not being allowed to continue their lives. PLEASE PLEASE allow me to continue to exist with their memories, values, experiences, and estates. I LIKE IT!"
[deleted]
[deleted]
TheMoonBnuuy
I wholly disagree with your framing. It's not just "kill one person to save two"
It's "kill one person who's parasitizing the lives of two people who can't exist unless he's removed from the picture, and the fact is that the two people whose lives get saved result in MORE lives than just those two being saved because they each are counted on by hundreds of other people for their survival."
[deleted]
[deleted]
TheMoonBnuuy
You're right. Everybody on the ship should be placed in greater harm's way so that a man whose existence depends on the active and wilful suppression of the existence of two people the crew needs to survive.
That's the MORAL thing to do.
TheMoonBnuuy
Sarcasm aside, I never said Tuvix was at fault, but by KNOWING his existence REQUIRES the suppression of the existence of two people who came first and didn't consent to becoming him, nor did they will their estates to him, by requesting to be allowed to continue to exist, he is taking on that responsibility. The only way you could argue otherwise is if he had no knowledge of what the implication.
GreaseMonkeyOfLove
Janeway did nothing wrong.
MidoryMoon
Oh she did a lot wrong. But Starfleet's entire judiciary is too afraid of her to do anything about it.
Username62611
She chose to bring back the neelix
gonzar09
He left... eventually.
Halfwise
The problem is that there is a buffer in the teleporter. They could have replicated a new Tuvok and Neelix, AND kept Tuvix around.
TheUnnamedPoet
The only argument I can think of to this approach is that it would have been one more mouth to feed on a ship that was already stressed to its absolute limits for resources. I don't say I agree, but that's literally the only line of logic that would make any sort of sense.
TheMoonBnuuy
That buffer works on quantum principles, like the No Cloning Theorem.
The buffer clears itself out by the very act of completing the transport.
The inverse of the No Cloning Theorem is the No Deleting Theorem, which means a transporter doesn't actually kill you. so long as you never exist in two places at at the same temporal instant, it's the real you that comes out the other end.
Which means Will Riker is the copy, and cannot have been a perfect copy either.
Lutki
Okay but that assumes that there is some natural law enforcing no simultaneous instances, otherwise it's just humans choosing to believe something. Like either consciousness is just the emergent properties a cause and effect or it is some here to unknown metaphysical property of the universe; everything else is just semantics.
Rubbishtheresnoway9peopleusetaniwhida
What does "on quantum principles" mean?
TheMoonBnuuy
By “quantum principles” I mean that the transporter is repeatedly described (in canon technobabble) as operating on quantum states rather than classical physics.
If you want to know the difference between quantum vs classical physics, that's outside the purview of this discussion and I suggest seeking independent study.
EltaninDracoPwc
If you try to apply real physics the 'logic' falls apart instantly - that's not how quantum mechanics works. But that's besides the point: they have an in-universe reason for why things work the way they do, and it's perfectly fine to stop there.
Stuffitwithbeans
Space magic
Whatdoyousaytoanicecupoftea
Star wars equivalent of Timey wimey
totallynotatimetraveler
well i mean... she did king solomoned a dude
TheMoonBnuuy
I think it's more she refused to reverse king solomon two dudes
CitrusyGarlic
They needed someone who could properly prepare local produce, they needed their security chief, and those two individuals who filled those roles came before Tuvix. As @CatPlanetQueen9000 has said, if you could have somehow asked Neelix and Tuvok inside of Tuvix if they'd want to be separated, they both would have screamed yes. Janeway made the right decision.
getadogupya
Yes, those are the reasons. It doesn't make it not a murder, however.
CitrusyGarlic
It's the opposite of murder. The creation of Tuvix was the real murder, the killing of the individual known as Neelix and the killing of the individual known as Tuvok.
getadogupya
They are two separate incidents. One an accident.
CitrusyGarlic
Yes and that accident was the murder. Janeway's decision righted that murder and restored two individuals who deserved to continue to keep on being two individuals
Az663
MidoryMoon
Shao was not called a murderer by anyone other than Edward, so it wasn't a legal declaration of anything. He committed the taboo of Human transmutation, which publically the government was against, but privately they'd promote. Depending on which anime, he was either executed immediately by Scar, or 'arrested' and used as part of a secret government lab project.
TheMoonBnuuy
Edward and the fans
the post is about fan reaction
MidoryMoon
Oh, that's simpler. As a child and a dog, they were unable to consent to any irreversible procedure, which makes it a tragedy of exploitation. Meanwhile, Neelix and Tuvox were adults who understood that away missions could be dangerous and chose to go. The circumstances were similar but the scenario and individuals involved were different.
TheMoonBnuuy
What do you think Neelix and Tuvok would say if you could ask them whether or not they want to remain a chimeric merger of the two? Hmm?
MidoryMoon
They didn't have anything to say about it, they were dead.
Let me ask you, how do you know the individuals Janeway brought back were the same Neelix and Tuvok? We've seen this before with Riker being split. There's no way to discern whether Janeway brought back 'the originals', she just reformed a lump of flesh into two more familiar lumps of flesh.
TheMoonBnuuy
They weren't dead. They were alive as a chimeric being named Tuvix. Even Tuvix knew they wouldn't want to remain merged.
Neelix and Tuvok didn't consent to being merged, that's a more specific claim than consent to abstract risk can support. And consenting to abstract risk doesn't justify leaving someone for dead when they could be easily saved.