SometimesISayHistoryStuff
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So, the latest season of Game of Thrones is now done. And well, shit, what an ending. It was bloody and fantastic and I loved it. That said this last season has had a few changes from the books. Now, I'm not going to be one of those guys who will shout about how good the books are and the show sucks.
Because, the show doesn't suck. It's a different medium and a lot of the neat tricks that Martin used in the books wouldn't translate well. And the show has done some changes that I thought were pretty well done. Remember in Season 2 when Arya was Tywin Lannister's cupbearer? Not in the books, but it was pretty awesome. Hell, Martin himself says he likes the show's Osha better than the one he originally wrote. And then there's Dorne, which, I don't know what the hell the writers were thinking.
But this is going to be about some changes that were missed during the transition that I really enjoyed. There are 3 that I think are most important: The Grand Northern Conspiracy, The Fuck is Actually Happening in Dorne, and Aegon Targaryen.
For those who are interested in seeing how things diverted this post is about my favorite subplot. What was going on in the North. Needless to say, spoilers ahead.
The World Ned Stark Left Behind
In an interview George Martin once said that the true linchpin of the entire series was Ned Stark. Everything from how he raised his children, to what he prized most in his life would echo throughout the series.
When I heard this I was pretty surprised, for it seemed that Martin was saying that Eddard was in many ways the main character. Just a main character who died before the first book was even concluded. But when you look at what happens in the North during Feast For Crows and Dance With Dragons you do see a ripple of Ned Stark that makes everything turn.
You see, we all expect that House Stark will be constantly betrayed, we see as Eddard, Robb, and even Jon do things that we think are foolish for the sake of honor and watch as it bites them in their ass. But one of the things the show only touched on, was that the nobility of House Stark brought something that none of the other houses had. Loyalty. Specifically loyalty even after death.
The Loyalty of the North
"Bear Island knows no king but the King in the North, whose name is STARK."
Hell yeah, the breakout star of Season 6, the one house of the North that did not forget their vows, and it's run by this totally badass 10 year old girl. I'm happy to note that in the books she also sends that letter to Stannis. And while she hasn't officially given her warriors to Jon or Sansa, well, that's because no one has asked her yet.
But this badass loyalty was found throughout the North. And the books left hints that the Umbers, the Manderlys, the Mormonts, the Glovers, and even the Lady Dustin who claimed to hate the Starks were all just as loyal. Because that was the one thing that the show missed, what I thought was one of the key messages of the series so far. Being honorable, treating your bannermen with respect and dignity gave the Starks the one thing that the Lannisters, the Tyrells, the Baratheons, hell not even the Targaryen's had. People they could trust.
I think this was best shown in a small exchange, where Northmen and some of Stannis' soldiers were marching throughout the winter to fight Ramsay Bolton and possibly rescue Arya (in the books, Ramsay is married to a person he claims is Arya. It's a lie though).
Lord Peasebury turned against the northmen. “This march was madness. More dying every day, and for what? Some girl?”
“Ned’s girl,” said Morgan Liddle.
"Ned's girl," echoed Big Bucket Wull. "And we should have had her and the castle both if you prancing southron jackanapes didn't piss your satin breeches at a little snow."
In the show we see the Umber's betray the Starks and the bannermen refuse their calls. When in the books, even without anyone telling them to, they're working to take down the Stark's enemies and find their rightful king once again.
The Acts of Robb Stark
So the conspiracy has its beginnings when King Robb Stark was still alive. Unlike in the show, Robb and his wife were not about the receive a little bundle of joy anytime soon. So Robb had to think of who would take his place if he should die without an heir. Now, he currently thinks that Theon betrayed him and murdered Bran and Rickon, so they're out. No one has heard anything about Arya since Eddard was first put in irons, so Robb assumes she's dead, too. That leaves Sansa, and while Robb loves his sister, he would be damned before he gives Winterfell to a Lannister, which Sansa just so happened to have been forced to marry.
This leaves one brother, not trueborn, no, but in his mind still a brother. So he signs a paper (though we're never officially told who he designates as his heir) with Greatjon Umber, Galbart Glover, Maege Mormont, Edmure Tully, and Jason Mallister all in attendance. Maege Mormont and Galbart Glover, Robb sends to Howland Reed (the man who saved Ned at the Tower of Joy) with the letter and instructions to take a castle held by Ironborn. These two characters then disappear from the narrative, though later we find that castle, with the Ironborn dead and dying crying about boogeymen and poisons. They made it. He then sends decoy letters across the North.
There was another thing that Robb did that may have some great importance later on. He decided that the North needs a fleet if they're ever going to win. They can't fight a defensive war forever, and by sea is the best way to try and have their presence felt by the rest of the continent, even possibly take King's Landing. He has two houses set up this fleet, House Umber and House Manderly. Admittedly, this arrangement had a bit of a rocky start, the Umbers are a proud warrior people hard as iron. It is often thought that the best warriors and most loyal friends that Robb had were Greatjon and his son Smalljon, who was in Robb's personal guard and died defending his king at the Red Wedding. Meanwhile Manderly was disrespectfully called Lord Too-Fat-To-Sit-A-Horse. Nevertheless, these two houses provide a foundation for the plot to come.
The Effects of the Red Wedding
Possibly my favorite moment in the books, and the show. The time where I was so enraged I threw my book against the wall, something I have never done to any book before or since. The Red Wedding is something that I will never forget, and neither will the North.
But, if the North are so loyal as I have mentioned, and they all know that the Frey's and the Bolton's have done, why don't they just stike back? After all, the Lannister's forces are held down taking castle by castle in the Riverlands, what's to stop them from fighting the Boltons? Well, amidst all the violence the Freys and Boltons weren't just killing people. Though they did kill a lot of them. But they also took hostages.
Remember Greatjon, the crazy guy that Grey Wind bit off 2 of his fingers and then suddenly started laughing? He's the one who declared Robb king in the first place. Well, he was captured. Being a total badass by the way. Apparently, a man was tasked with making sure the Greatjon was drunk, giving him enough wine to kill 3 normal men. Then when they finally came to attack him, he still fought off 8 men, while unarmed. Stole a weapon, killed one man, wounded 2 others, and bit a man's ear off. Man do I love the Umbers. But besides the Greatjon, a Piper was also taken as a hostage, as well as a son of Lord Manderly, and many more. The northern houses know if they attack the Boltons their captive family members will be murdered. So they can't just attack, the Northmen will have start taking master classes in plotting to get their way.
The Fall Guy
Like all good conspiracies, you're gonna need someone to take the fall. Enter this man, Stannis the Mannis. If we're going by the actual laws of Westeros, the rightful King of the Seven Kingdoms. One of my favorite characters, at least in the books, where he hasn't murdered his own daughter yet.
The Northmen saw Stannis coming a mile away. He has an army, he has some military acumen and as of now the North is supposedly leaderless. Since whatever that letter from Robb actually said, no one has come forward to declare anyone king yet. Some of the northern lords have sided with Stannis.
For example, a bunch of lords joined up with him when he started telling people that he was going to fight the Boltons partially in order to free Ramsay's new bride, who everyone believes is Arya (thus that quote above on loyalty). From what these houses report, they're not impressed. Stannis himself seemed alright, but his ridiculous fire god and the burnings left many Northerners with less than glowing recommendations for him as their leader.
But for now we're going to mention what one house has been doing in particular. House Umber.
Hother Whoresbane and Mors Crowfood, The Remaining Umbers
With the Greatjon captured and the Smalljon killed house Umber should in theory go to a different son of the Greatjon. We know he had them, but so far none of them seem to have stepped up to the job. Instead a rift has formed among the Umbers, with the Greatjon's two uncles forming the sides.
Hother Whoresbane joined up with the Boltons and Freys offering his men, who are much too young to be the Umber's war host.
Mors Crowfood joined up with Stannis offering his men, who are much too old to be the Umber's war host. But Mors also had a caveat to his allegiance. His army would not be used to fight his brother and on any battle they must be on opposite sides.
That would at first seem to be the end of it, the Umbers are playing both sides. But when you look at the events of the book, and you begin to see just how sneaky the Umbers can be. When Theon escapes, Mors Crowfood just so happens to be the one who finds them. When Hother gives some information leading Roose Bolton to send some Freys out on a scouting expedition, they all die. Which we later learn was from falling into pits made by, you guessed it, Mors and his men.
The Umbers are in communication with each other, and they're setting themselves up to kill as many as they can of both the Bolton/Frey alliance and this Stannis fellow.
But who else is in on this little plot? And where is the true Umber force?
Well, remember those ships they were supposed to be building with House Manderly?
House Manderly
Ok, complete truth here. I only started writing this because the story of Manderlys was too good for you TV Show watchers not to know about. How awesome are they? Well, I think members of the house can be as staunchly loyal as Lyanna Mormont with the cunning violence of Arya. Also, they do not give a fuck.
Lord Wyman Manderly is an older lord who already has a few grandkids of marrying age. In his youth he was a knight, expert rider and apparently did very well in a few jousts. But after Robert's Rebellion Wyman never expected to fight again and got fat. Really fat. So fat he earned the nicknames Lord Too-Fat-To-Sit-A-Horse, Lord Lard, Lord Pig, and Lord Lamprey (because apparently eels are what he eats all day). Many have taken his massive size to mean he's a doddering fool.
So, I've already explained that the Manderlys are tied with the Umbers, but Wyman has more ties than that. So, House Glover allied with Stannis, so Stannis sent a Robett Glover to go see if they can get Manderly on their side, since Manderly lost a son at the Red Wedding.
Glover goes to Manderly, and writes to Stannis saying Manderly's have no men to send. But Stannis tries once more and sends our beloved Onion Knight, Davos, to go talk to Manderly.
Davos goes to the White Harbor and sees fat Lord Manderly surrounded by Freys and their allies promising Wyman the freedom of his son if he could prove his loyalty to the new Lannister regime. When Davos called for their allegiance, instead, the fat lord Manderly scoffed and asked what could Stannis ever give to the Manderlys?
Vengeance, was all that Davos could offer.
Wylla Manderly and Davos at the Manderly Court
"Yes!" came out one voice in the crowd. Wylla, a small girl with green hair, one of Wyman Manderly's granddaughters, had worked up the courage to speak.
"They killed Lord Eddard and Lady Catelyn and King Robb. He was our king! He was brave and good and the Freys murdered him. If Lord Stannis will avenge him, we should join Lord Stannis."
Wyman Manderly told his granddaughter to be silent. To not offend their Frey guests. That if she keeps talking she would be sent to become a nun.
"I know about the promise … Maester Theomore, tell them! A thousand years before the Conquest, a promise was made, and oaths were sworn in the Wolf's Den before the old gods and the new. When we were sore beset and friendless, hounded from our homes and in peril of our lives, the wolves took us in and nourished us and protected us against our enemies. The city is built upon the land they gave us. In return we swore that we should always be their men. Stark men!"
Having enough, Wyman sent his granddaughter away and clapped Davos in irons. Soon Davos's head was resting on a pike, along with his disfigured hand so the world would see that Manderly was now loyal to the crown.
The Plan Takes Shape
"My son Wendel came to the the Twins a guest. He ate Lord Walder's bread and salt, and hung his sword upon the wall to feast with friends. And they murdered him. Murdered, I say, and may the Freys choke upon their fables. I drink with Jared, jape with Symond, promise Rhaegar the hand of my own beloved granddaughter ... but never think that means I have forgotten. The north remembers, Lord Davos. The north remembers, and the mummer's farce is almost done. My son is home."
After being half starved and looking haggard, Davos was switched with another prisoner, who looked close enough once the starvation kicked in. That prisoner, who Manderly was keeping around just in case he needed him, was executed in Davos's place.
Thus proving Manderly loyalty, Wylis would be sent home. Meaning Manderly's true plan can begin. Manderly takes Davos to a secret meeting between himself, the previously mentioned Robett Glover, and an Ironborn. The only surviving Ironborn from the sack of Winterfell. A mute named Wex Pyke.
Now Wex might not be particularly adept at talking, but the boy was smart. When the battle for Winterfell turned sour he ran and hid in the heart tree and waited for everything to blow over. And, he happened to see Bran, Rickon, Osha, Meera, Jojen, and Hodor all come creeping out from the crypts of Winterfell taking a few of the ornamental swords that were down there with them. He heard their plans, and when they split up he followed them. He watched as Osha decided the safest place for Rickon to be was away from the mainland, and took a ship to Skagos. When he was later captured he wrote this information down, and he was sent to Manderly.
So, Wyman apologized for his ill treatment of Davos and revealed his hatred of the Freys and how he wished he could be as openly brave as his beloved granddaughter. He gave Davos an offer, bring back Rickon, a rightful Stark, and he would be loyal to Stannis until the day he died (though he never said anything about the rest of his house).
But there is even more that Wex could know. We never hear it in the books, but Wex would have seen Ramsay's betrayal of house Hornwood, House Cerwyn, and House Tallhart when he retook Winterfell. And guess which houses we see Manderly talking to in secret later in the books? A few Cerwyns and Tallharts, of course.
With that agreement out of the way, it was finally time for Lord Too-Fat to leave White Harbor, for the last time, he figured. He took his bannermen and rode to Ramsay's wedding with "Arya." Never expecting to come back alive.
The Bolton/Stark Wedding: I Want Some Pie
A lot of important things happen at this wedding. I don't think I could get to all of them in a way that would be palatable to you guys. But I'll go for some of the important points.
Starting once more with the Umbers. Hother Whoresbane is seen talking to another house, a member of House Stout. Now important to note, House Stout serves Lady Dustin. I'll get to her in a bit.
But the big glorious winner of the wedding has to Lord Wyman Manderly (it definitely wasn't the poor woman that Ramsay married). So, when Manderly left White Harbor he had 3 Freys with him. When he reached Winterfell he had none, but he did suddenly have 3 enormous pies.
"The best pie you have ever tasted, my lords. Wash it down with Arbor gold and savor every bite. I know I shall."
Wyman Manderly ate 2 slices of each of these meat pies, more than even Fat Walda could stomach. All the while looking to make sure the Boltons and Freys were eating his pies as well. And then he began to drink. And then he started to sing.
The song he sang? A little ditty called "The Rat Cook." They mention the tale briefly in the show, but if you've forgotten here's a reminder. There once was a man who hated a king. So he invited the king and his son over, he gave them bread and salt protecting them under guests right. But in the night he slew the young prince and baked him into a pie and gave it to the king. The king thought it was delicious and asked for a second slice.
But the gods were furious. Not because of the murder, nor because he made the king a cannibal. But because the man broke guests right. And that they could not forgive. So they turned the cook into a rat and cursed him to forever be hungry and to only eat the flesh of his own young.
And so Wyman Manderly sang, in front of a host of Freys a song about how breaking guests right is the most loathsome thing you can do, and that a fitting punishment is to be forced to eat your own. Amazing.
And yet it's important to mention, Wyman himself never broke guests right, the Freys all left his home unmolested. It was only on the road north that he murdered them.
The rest of his time in Winterfell he picked fights with the Freys, constantly needling them. And when a Frey boy was found dead he at first gives his condolences but then adds
"Though mayhaps this was a blessing. Had he lived he would have grown up to be a Frey."
Starting a fight that almost cost him his life. But it got the desired effect. Roose couldn't have his own bannermen fighting within the castle when he is currently at war with Stannis, so he sent both the Freys and the Manderlys out of Winterfell to go scouting. Gee, I wonder what the Manderly host is going to do to the Freys when out of Winterfell, alone.
Lady Barbery Dustin The Last Piece
Now, among the Northerners there is one house who truly hates the Starks. Sure Bolton may want to rule instead of them, yeah the Karstarks may not forgive Robb for beheading their leader. But Lady Dustin hates the Starks, the entire house. Because she always wanted to be one.
Eddard Stark was not meant to lead House Stark, his elder brother was Brandon. When Barbery met Brandon they became lovers, this had quite an effect on her and she still curses when Brandon's father, Lord Rickard, squashed any chance for her to wed Brandon in favor of Catelyn Tully, one of the few times in recorded history that two of the Great Houses were going to mix. Along with the planned marriage of Robert Baratheon with Lyanna Stark Rickard was looking to be making some kind of power play in the south (and that's a whole other giant can of worms).
But eventually Barbery did marry, a good man of house Dustin. William Dustin, who rode south with Ned Stark to fight his wars, and died at the Tower of Joy to bring back Eddard's sister. And when he died Ned buried him there, in Dorne. Not back with her, where he belonged. And for taking her only two loves away from her, Barbery despises the Starks.
But there's an interesting note. Lady Dustin tells this story to Theon Greyjoy, or Reek, as he was called at the time. Reek, who was in all ways Ramsay's toy. He would of course report Lady Dustin's loyalty right back to his master. And even more interesting, she tells this to Reek after Hother Whoresbane talked to her man from Stout, and she goes down into the Crypts of Winterfell. There she notes that a few of the ornamental swords were taken out of the crypt and there are signs that someone was in there since the Sack of Winterfell.
The theory goes, Wyman talked to Hother about the stolen swords. Hother talked to Stout who then relayed the message to Dustin about the fact that the Stark boys could still be alive, and Lady Dustin confirmed it.
But why would Hother trust her? Well, as much as Barbery hates the Starks, there's someone she hates just as much, Ramsay Snow. Because once Roose had a trueborn heir who through tangled web of political marriages was distantly related to Barbery, and so she took him as a page. And apparently this boy, Domeric was good, and intelligent. And when he heard he had a brother he asked to meet Ramsay, and take him with him on his travels. Because he had always wanted a brother to love. And then Domeric died, and it seemed to Barbery that he died of poison, and she blames (probably rightly) Ramsay.
But because she hates the Starks she remains the only house that Roose somewhat trusts. And so Hother gave her a test, he told her just enough about the conspiracy that she could have turned him in, but not nearly enough to get anyone else. She has, apparently, no knowledge of Wyman's involvement, actually she looks upon him with disgust.
She could have turned on Hother, but she didn't. And so the encirclement of house Bolton is complete.
There was more, a lot more actually. A wildling singer we all know with 6 spear wives, an unknown murderer that hunts Frey and Bolton under the cover of night, survivors of Bolton treachery. A few Greyjoy's captured by Stannis. But I think I covered all the truly key points.
Every potential ally the Freys and Boltons could have is plotting against them. They all wish a Stark back on the throne, maybe Jon, maybe one of the surviving Stark brothers. But they all universally despise the architects of the Red Wedding.
The North Remembers, and they remember the Starks. Honorable for all their faults, good for all their problems.
The North Remembers, and they remember the Red Wedding. Treachery only begets further treachery.
popculturella
I'm so disappointed they didn't include the Manderlys. My favorite of the houses besides the Targs.
msolb823
A quick note. Robb's wife wasn't at the Red Wedding. She received a warning to stay away so she never died in the books.
Davedavedavedavedave
youreawesome
Your summary skills are amazing. Please right one on Dorne. Doran Martell's scheming and how he cooperates with his neices needs to be told
iSoulend
this, i've needed this for so long, like, i'm often talking with friends who watch the show, i read the books, and it's nothing alike
theyar
The fake Arya in the books was the whole reason Ramsey tortured and brainwashed Theon. He used Theon to vouch for fake Arya's identity.
youreawesome
poor Jeyne Poole
gshotts
Nice summary. +1
HipsterWhiteWalker
Wylla is the OG badass girl of the north. That speech is my favorite part of the books.
H4ppyMis3ry
If you want all of these plot points but dont want to read the full books, the wiki for ASOIAF has a chapter synopsis for each one. +1
Tywinmanistr
Winter is Here.
antoinebugleboy
I know my eyes scanned every page of all the books in AOIAF that have been published, but apparently, my brain was somewhere else.
PhilFromAccounting
Exactly. I actually quit reading them about halfway through the last book because I was so clueless to what was happening it was boring.
Dayrest
I really want to read the books (again) but I don't want to end up at the cliffhanger again with no resolution in sight.
WiqidBritt
I'm about half way though A Dance with Dragons but I don't want to finish it yet... I think it's been about a year...
sooperdooperpooper
I've actually just started reading them again, with the same fear as you. Lol. I'm hoping if I read slow, that by the time I finish them all
sooperdooperpooper
GRRM will not have died yet and at least have released the winds of winter.
veronicamarsdestroyerofworlds
I've read all the books and I did not remember half of this.Thanks, and please do Dorne next! That's the one thing I whine about re:the show
extraline
+1 I want to learn more about Dorne!
youreawesome
I loved Doran Martell!!
LordRamsayTheKingflayer
Yes! "I have worked at the downfall of Tywin Lannister since the day they told me of Elia and her children."
Gkoz
Dorne! I need to know what happened in Dorne! They gave a glimpse early on never again to be seen until the last episode...
SometimesISayHistoryStuff
Alright bit of a spoiler, take everything that the show told you happened in Dorne, then completely ignore it.
Gkoz
Is Doran not dead?!
SometimesISayHistoryStuff
No. And he pimp slapped down the attempt to politically outmaneuver him.
Gkoz
What does a man need to do to get this story?!
SometimesISayHistoryStuff
Wait about a week or whenever I have time to do a full post. If you want, I can message you when I finish.
DaveND
Read the books. It's seriously worth it.
FaecalEncephalopathy
I appreciate your love of the Umbers. Fucking badass' man. SmallJon scaling Crag cements he's badass, even before his actions at the twins
FaecalEncephalopathy
Fuck it, just do an Umber appreciation post man.
CrimsonNirnr00t
This is an awesome post. I read the books & loved them, but it was many years ago. And now the show has convoluted my memory of some of >>
CrimsonNirnr00t
>> the finer plot lines and details that made the books so intriguing. I need stuff like this before Winds of Winter is released.
skullified
I've read all the books. Twice. And this still helps so much
SometimesISayHistoryStuff
Feast For Crows and Dance With Dragons are in some ways Martin's best and worst books. It seems like it's a lot of build up with no payoff 1
SometimesISayHistoryStuff
3: attention, then suddenly the giant web Martin was making becomes clear. So yeah, I can see why having it spelled out would help a lot.
SometimesISayHistoryStuff
2: which turns a lot of people off and makes the reader kind of forget a bunch of these details. But if you're actually paying damn close
SergeantSalsa
I feel like I missed a lot since I couldn't consentrate ln FFC well. The characters weren't so interesting then whereas DWD was awesome
adaylateandaeuroshort
There shall be a new house
Radix865
You want more wincest? Because Jon is (presumably) Daenerys's nephew.
Coldshade
I would go for, I don't know, maybe "Ice and fire"?
LordRamsayTheKingflayer
Seat: Starfall
Muffinman41
Thanks for this. The north is the most badass of all cultures and even more badass in the books. Even the boltons are... (1/2)
Muffinman41
(2/2) badass in the way that Tywin is. They are bad guys but formidable. Everyone in the north is cool as shit.
DaveND
Even the way they kill themselves when they're all starving to death is badass. The old men "go hunting" during a storm in the long winters.
kittybuttwiggle
"cool" heh
kvothethebrokentree
Could you do more of these please?
Chouilste
Seconded
SometimesISayHistoryStuff
Current plan is to do 1 on Dorne 1 on Aegon and maybe 1 on Rickard Stark's southron ambitions.
kvothethebrokentree
Thanks!
Dotsdoitovertime
Yes please, I loved the Dorne parts in the books and I'm quite disappointed about how it turned out in the TV show (which I do love though)
LordVictorius
So would I be able to watch the show without it spoilimg the books too much?
fizzlebuns
Spoilers? Seriously? The show is the books with minor tweaks. Would watching the Lord of the Rings 'spoil' the books?! Yes!
SometimesISayHistoryStuff
Uhh, the first season is pretty close to the first book. They've diverged and re-converged a lot over the next few seasons. Personally, 1
SometimesISayHistoryStuff
2: I'd read the books first because while there are differences, the big main events tend to be the same. But, I know a lot of guys who
SometimesISayHistoryStuff
3: just want to watch and I will say the show is great. If you only have the time and energy to watch the show there are far worse ways to
SometimesISayHistoryStuff
4: spend your time.
LordVictorius
Okay, I have the time to read the books but my friends keep pushing me to watch the show. I'ma try to speed up my reading then! Thank you!!!
Yosswell
The show is a tl;dr version of the books, it would spoil some key moments
valonquar
The books are points of view, changing each chapter. You get to read what characters are actually thinking. It's very very different.
twentysomething
Just started the books after watching every season. Knowing whats going to happen hasnt spoiled it for me. Theres so much more in the books.
WiqidBritt
Wyman Manderly is my favorite minor character in the books. He has a bit of the Southerner's cunning and the North's honor.
gimpycat
As he should, since his family is originally Southern.
WiqidBritt
yup
HomelyArgonianMaid
HOW DID I MISS THE MEAT PIES AND THE RAT COOK CONNECTION thank you, now I have to go re-read that!!!!
SometimesISayHistoryStuff
Because Martin has mastered making awesome and important things happen in the background where no one notices them.
HomelyArgonianMaid
Realtalk, tho, I can't fucking wait until the trap springs and all this shit rains down on these Macbeth-Bolton assholes. It'll be delicious
HomelyArgonianMaid
He's such a clever asshole I love the effort he puts in! Here I was thinking it only tied in to Bran telling the story @ the Nightfort, ugh!
GuyBehindTheGuyBehindTheGuy
What about Catelyn's resurrection?
TheMagicalUpvoteFearie
I had high hopes it would be in the last episode, because episode 7 and 8 were leading up to it so much.
SometimesISayHistoryStuff
Unfortunately, while awesome, I don't have much information to write about there. She's undead, and in control of the BWOB killing Freys.
GuyBehindTheGuyBehindTheGuy
Well she was with the Brotherhood without Banners (in book) and they just showed up again on the tv series and with Sandor Clegane.
GuyBehindTheGuyBehindTheGuy
I don't see any logical crossover potential.
flippigntypochecker
Yeah some items could just be listed, like King beyond the wall being alive, Cathlyn stark, areas wolf and its pack, robb wife, gendry.
iSoulend
well she's kinda important to the brienne of tarth line isn't she ?
SometimesISayHistoryStuff
She is, like I said I think she is/will be important. I just don't have enough to actually write more than like a paragraph or two about her
storiesthatstick
I feel she'll come back when the Red Woman (who's riding South) bumps into her and then eventually the brotherhood without banners.
SometimesISayHistoryStuff
I do think she will be really important eventually, but as of now, it doesn't seem as game changing as the Northern Conspiracy.
Jyx123
There's actually a chance she's a quasi-part of the GNC. For starters, at Oldstones,I believe, she was mentioned holding Robbs Iron Crown1/?
Jyx123
Somebody affiliated with the BwB was in Riverrun when Brynden left and Edmure came. Brynden being one of the witnesses to Robb's will. 2/2?
LaserFromTheSky
I honestly dont remember most of these things from the books. I might have to go back and reread just for this! Keep up the great wor
princeslayer
As someone who's read the books, that's a well done synopsis. Well done, OP. +1
Jinsuuu
We get it. You read
Chouilste
Hats off, this was a great post.
akdude
yeah the only thing that I think needs to be corrected is that the old men went into winterfell instead of the young. none of them 1/2
akdude
expected to live
Starrkprimera
Same. Nice job OP +1
NOINITIATIVE
hear hear!...though i'm disappointed in myself for not picking up on the missing Freys and the 3 pies when I read it the first time, lol
babydew
Me too.i finished the fifth book last night after reading them all sequentially. Totally missed it.
5700
OldAceMerrillUsesDynamite
Yes! I was going to re-read the last two but I guess I don't have to now.
justforthefakepoints
.
ieatzombiez
As someone who didn't read the books this didn't make much sense.
SometimesISayHistoryStuff
Well dang. What wasn't clear? I'm always looking to improve.
badmagic
It's ok. Like he said, he can't read.
ieatzombiez
Oh no it was good and detailed, it's just I don't recognize some people because their not important in the show.
Craftylefty47
Beautiful. The only thing to add is the distinction that Wyman only eats the food he brought, never any of the Bolton food...no guest rights
zombiebatman
I was late for a meeting at work because I wanted to read this whole thing. +1
HotMagentaDuckFace
Take my upvote. May it help in your time of unemployment.
SometimesISayHistoryStuff
I'm not apologizing for that.
ButterfaceTaintClown
The Red Wedding is based on The Black Feast.
Mrdanteruss
Even after reading the books twice this guide was extremely enlightening
iAlwaysUpvoteMN
Guess I have to read the books now.
ftwcode
you won't regret it
Cklixus
Saw the show first, read the books later. I thought it gave the show more depth
bmmead
Do it! The show is great but it touches about 40% of the wonderfully intertwined story that Martin wrote. It's beautiful!
eetsumkaus
to me, the show was like fanfiction of the books, exploring how each of the characters would interact with each other.
eetsumkaus
I feel like it does more to explore the main characters though, because, you know, you can do more of those things in film...
HeWhoPours
Disagreed, the main characters are thoroughly dissected in the books. Unfortunately it's a lot of internal dialogue, hard to do on film
bmmead
One of the beautiful benefits about film!
TheLastSpanishInquisitor
I'm not a "the books are always better" fanboy, but in this case, there's so much richness and thought and subtleties...
TheLastSpanishInquisitor
Maybe it's not "better", but it's surely very different. I watched the first 4 seasons before the books, and boy, they're beautiful.
pandasmakemehappy
Honestly if you love the show, and even if you like fantasy in general, the writing style of the books may not be your thing.
GuffTheTough
I usually don't like most fantasy, but I ate the books right up. Sometimes too verbose for his own good, but I enjoy Martin's writing style.
doctopussy
Oh my, you're the first person here that shares my opinion! I tried reading the first one & just couldn't get into it. Love the show though
Flexiblewarmth
I found GOT to be a political saga wrapped in fantasy fiction. Some of it is very very good. Particularly when Varys explains things.
Flexiblewarmth
In the 2nd last book maybe. Also the whole travel thing gets long in the tooth with fantasy fiction are reading so much over many years
Flexiblewarmth
Lets travel all over middle earth. Lets go here and there. Lot of fantasy fiction includes the foods they eat. Sets the scene
pandasmakemehappy
I love the show and I love fantasy novels, but the asoiaf books really weren't for me.
SometimesISayHistoryStuff
Personally, I think Martin is a genius. But his style is not for everyone, not by a long shot. Most either love it or find it dull.
NoIdidntsayAbeLincolnIsaidHeyBlinkin
I recently bought a lovely little leatherbound set to read that makes me not want to read this post to ruin the surprises. Favorited anyway.
valonquar
It's sad what they did to the Sand Snakes on the show. It seems like they just couldn't film much at that location or something.
Baeloro
Everything cut from the show was to fit each season into 10 episode arcs. That's why we get small pieces of plot in the wrong season too.
JimboPM
I think they just wrote themselves into a corner and had no time to do anything other than cut Dorne down to basic snippets.
Dokramuh
I always hated the sand snakes. I hate them even more now.
DMGuy
They're rough, and coarse, and they get everywhere.
anxioushedgehog
On another post I saw a comment about how they couldn't film in Morocco much because of nastiness to female cast from local extras...
TheRoyalOtter
A big part of Dorne is also filmed in Spain. The Water Gardens are filmed at the Sevilla Alcazar
DMGuy
Then fucking film somewhere else, Jesus.
SometimesISayHistoryStuff
I wouldn't doubt it. But still, that re-write was just bad.
Jaredddddd
I think a lot of people hate the sand snakes for how awful their writing (bad poosy) and fight scenes were
Veckzis
Tyene is super hot in S5, tho
waudey912
I just never understood how the 'avenge oberyn' thing involved killing most of his family..
anunexpectedgourney
Agreed but to sum it up, stupid is as stupid does
AsABiologistWhoIsNotFunAtParties
Honestly I didn't find them that interesting in the books either.
Smead
It was silly how they killed Myrcella when in the books they were plotting to put her on the Iron Throne.
carbolicious
This plot change actually angered me quite a bit. They definitely loved her in the books.
potshot
The whole thing was pretty ridiculous. "Avenge our father? We shall, by ending his entire line!"
Rbtgorilla
I think the prophecy was changed too, in the books Cersei's children are supposed to die as Kings and Queens, rather than just die.
Hahandfuckyou
Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds
MechanicalMistress
Gold crowns could be interpreted merely as blond hair. Noting that her children would not be Roberts.
Wing126
"We do not kill little girls in Dorne."
JennaLS
Poor Oberyn, LOL. He'd be like WTF Ellaria, did you not listen to anything I ever said? Kill the Lannisters only!!
Wing126
Yeah they completely butchered the Sand Snakes. It really sucks cause Dorean is one of my favourite characters.
potshot
No shit. Nothing they do in the books even remotely matches Oberyn's values. He makes it pretty clear that he loved his family above all(1)
potshot
And doesn't believe in birth dictating your worth. So what do they do? They kill his living family and murder a person based on birth.(2)
RIPSlurmsMckenzie
Exactly, it's kind of big deal. They're like yeah we have your actual rightful ruler.
greentowhitetechnology
+1 so hard to forgive the show for disrespecting Areo Hotah though
TheLastSpanishInquisitor
Agreed. It seemed to me all of what happens at Dorne was rushed. Also probably part of the P.C. bullshit of "women power" of Season 6.
badwolfstormborn
Darkstar. ????
8bitRevolver
One of my favourite book characters.Spent all of his time calculating where an attack could come from, and they just stabbed him in the back
RIPSlurmsMckenzie
Jesus yes, one like the most BA fighters ever just gets poked with a knife in the back type thing. LAME
thehungryguy
lets take one of the top fighters in the show and just have a little girl stab him. When it should have taken all 3 of them to even try
rawheadrex0508
Yet Arya gets stabbed, jumps in dirty water, seeks help, then proceeds to run and jump off buildings running from the waif.
ProfessorMorifarty
I still haven't forgiven the show for killing Barristan Selmy, then they took Areo Hotah too.
CulpaScintilla
Not to mention HOW. It's the equivalent of having Arthur Dayne die from a papercut.
ProfessorMorifarty
Exactly, it made him saying, "Even now I could cut through the five of you like carving a cake," seem like a hollow boast.
manslut
AREO SPEEDWAGON!
TrevHead
MUDA MUDA MUDA MUDA MUDA MUDA MUDA MUDA!!!
CulpaScintilla
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/826/175/6f3.png
TrevHead
I needed this.
DontHateMePlease
Remind me which he was?
LaserFromTheSky
Who was supposed to kill one of the last Kingsguard worth a damn (who went to Dorne instead of Jamie/Bronn). This was a shitty rewrite.
TrevHead
Black, bald spearman that was body guard to Prince Doran Martell.
L3M0NSHARK
Big black guy with a spear
DaveND
AXE
L3M0NSHARK
Glaive?
DaveND
It's supposed to be a giant axe, but yeah, in the show it's a glaive.
2muchbaconsaidno1ever
At least he got some airtime. Poor Arianne Martell got zip and she was pretty important when dealing with Myrcella
SometimesISayHistoryStuff
Well she got reworked and dumbed down and completely blotched.
2muchbaconsaidno1ever
1) Agreed, she was horribly rewritten as was the whole Dorne perspective. Granted, in the HBO version, they came to the scene rather late.
2muchbaconsaidno1ever
2) That being said, having Varys recruit them is a saving grace to their role in things forthcoming. Time will tell.
SometimesISayHistoryStuff
Actually that just confused me more. It's like, they ended in the same spot but took a longer worse road to get there.
2muchbaconsaidno1ever
Well, it replaced the whole missing brother of Arianne, Quentyn, seeking out Daenerys in Essos.
gnarlygus
I would love to hear more about the two other plots!
AndrePetersen
Me too!!!!!!
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FeversAndMirrors
Yeah do Dorne! The show doesn't really show it much and it's like a loose piece in the big puzzle. What's their deal? Thx :)
mustbeapony
Either? Both? Thank you!
Redlinefox
Dorne as well! Thank you OP
GoshKaren
Dorne please!
Futuristicfembot
Thank you for telling people about bookDorne. The show makes me want to cry whenever I see a sand snake.
gnarlygus
Dorne! I feel like I'm missing some important backstory there (although secret Targaryen sounds amazing too)!
WiqidBritt
Oh, Book Dorne is soooo much better than Show Dorne. Doran Martell actually does stuff other than sit there and get stabbed.
SometimesISayHistoryStuff
Alright, unless I get some overwhelming show of people wanting to hear about Aegon I'll do Dorne first. Might take a week or more tho.
DontBeMadGETGLAD
.
nycterelis
This makes me wish i could favorite people.
21stCenturyKelt
.
Gink0
You're freaking awesome and I appreciate all this work. It's been years since I read the books
OPismyslavename
You should definitely do Dorne. The show completely butchered that part of the story.
Happyrexmanningday
I vote Dorne as well. I wondered why the show changed that plot the most.
SlutForStarWarsLore
Thanks, SometimesISayWesterosHistoryStuff!
SometimesISayHistoryStuff
Heh, the funny thing is. I have about 3 albums in the works on various history things. The Gothic War, Sparta, James Garfield, but this 1
Iminlovewithagirl
Do you think they tried to wrap Jorah and Connington into one character? And do you think that means I can expect diddly from Aegon's plot?
SometimesISayHistoryStuff
Yes. And yes.
meowmeowmothafuckas
Please do both!!
bobbummanwitdaequipmunk
Dorne!
HeeelllloooooooMurse
Aemon Targaryen and Griff are my favorite part of the books. Also, their absence is kind of why I don't watch the show
Smead
I thought it was Aegon? Argh, too many similarly named characters - it's been awhile since I read them.
HeeelllloooooooMurse
Honestly my gut said Aegon but OP appeared to be better versed in the books then I am so I trusted him
SometimesISayHistoryStuff
Your gut was totally right. Aemon is Maester Aemon from the Night's Watch. Daah. Ok, I can go correct this.
ControlledIsMyEnthusiasm
Actually, I'm very excited to see the Aegon/Griff plot on the show, but I have a 100% sure that the series would just ruin their story.
ControlledIsMyEnthusiasm
And I utterly don't want that.
RacingToRedLights
I don't think we will see young griff on the show. It's too late in the game to develop him and I think the show has blended his storyline.
OldAceMerrillUsesDynamite
Why not both!!
SometimesISayHistoryStuff
Eventually. It's more of, which will I do first, kind of thing. And while I could try and write them on the same post, it could be confusing
OldAceMerrillUsesDynamite
Btw do you think Jorah will go up-river to look for a cure and meet the person Jon Connington is with? (Trying not to spoiler)
SometimesISayHistoryStuff
I don't think so. With basically all the other movers of that plot written out or killed, I think he's just an ignored plot line.
OldAceMerrillUsesDynamite
Yaaay both!
Weeksipedia
Both. Fantastic job OP. Just Fantastic.
SometimesISayHistoryStuff
Thank you. I'm glad you enjoyed reading it.
Weeksipedia
Loved it. I thought Lady Dustin was just a Stark hater but your theory has me convinced shes got something else going on.
Weeksipedia
How did you organize all that info? Bc the chapters jump around I imagine it being hard to get all the relevant info in one place.
andtheseashalltell
The North Remembers is almost as much a saying of House Stark as is Winter Is Coming.
Anononononon
Winter is coming is another way of saying "the north remembers"
kurastwolf
And Winter has Come. Time for the North to Act.
SpraynardYitzben
Similar to "A Lannister always pays his debts" and House Lannister
Imjusthereforthecomments
Don't say it. Don't fucking say it.
SometimesISayHistoryStuff
To be fair. The "A Lannister always pays his debts" is a far better slogan than "Hear Me Roar" but both Stark mottos are great.
TheLastSpanishInquisitor
Well, "Hear Me Roar" sounds a lot like something Katy Perry of House Lannister would say, perhaps.
DickDastardly404
Well, like Sansa said - winter is here. Perhaps it is time for some new words.
nycterelis
It's not like this is the first winter since the founding of house stark. Iirc, ned has seen 2 or 3
DickDastardly404
But it is the worst one.
nycterelis
True! Perhaps supernaturally so
Jyx123
Tyrion is recorded in the books as having seen nine. Eddard, a generation upwards, has probably seen double as many.
nycterelis
Ty, i honestly couldn't remember