gofuckyourselves
59251
1745
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This is a black aces tactical "firearm". Not a shotgun, pistol, sbs, or an aow.
The BATF has their panties in a wad over this. Since this is manufactured as it sits it does not meet that classification for any particular type of gun. This according to the BATF themselves, is simply a firearm and not an nfa item. This gun uses a modified black aces tactical mossberg 500 receiver that takes saiga mags. It is in 12 gauge with a 9" barrel I believe. Since it's never had a stock it is not a shotgun. To be a shotgun it must have had a stock. Therefore it can't be an sbs. Since it's so short it's technically a handgun, but it's not. It has a forward grip that is needed to reciprocate the action, handguns can't have that. Then it's an aow since it's a pistol with a forward grip. It's actually not a forward grip either, as it's off to the side and not vertical. So it's not an aow. Very smart (or dumb) of them to basically troll the BATF. Personally I don't have the balls to troll a government agency, but I guess that's how some people get their kicks.
AlcoholicsGratuitous
As long as it doesn't use the same restroom as our children!
hailthefish
They'll probably just shrug and call it a destructive device. Or just have the attorney general make it illegal by fiat, like Massachusetts.
tornik
Use more acronyms, it'll get your point across better.
Caniac
ikr, btw xyz pdq (lol)
bhikku
I want one!
SbobbBoi
Where the hell is the trigger??
TacticalChungus
The arm strap is folded to the side blocking your view of the trigger. It's in the normal place.
NiggersFTWagain
No, fuck with Echelon: threaten an elected person in a phone conversation to receive a free trip from men in black
FuckaMidget
can recommend the free room service
InternetExplorer2001
"Black Aces Tactical Firearm" = "Beurow of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms" = "BATF" illuminati confirmed
EvenSpeedwagon
"Beurow." I'm not sure what that is, but it must be a truly terrible creature to have such a disgusting name.
kashin32
im just going to say its a shotgun
OddOod
Duh, I have no idea who the fuck thought it made sense to require that shotguns have stocks
Treblaine
Not so fast. If a .45 Colt revolver can be loaded with .410 shotgun shells, is that s shotgun?
TooLazyToDoSomethingElse
The receiver is a shotgun, that is all that matters. Everything else can be customized to whatever you want but doesn't affect the receiver
Treblaine
So you could have a locked-breach "shotgun" then put on a 20mm rifled barrel and it's not in trouble for being over .50-inch bore diameter?
AutonomousPrime
Which is great, but most states have a metric ton of laws to prevent its legality. I know it breaks at least 3 and probably 6 here.
JackHandy70
Those laws are about modifying a shotgun. This was created this way.
distainv
Where do you live? There are no laws it breaks anywhere as far as i know.
AutonomousPrime
It's a short barreled shotgun in CA. Also possibly an assault weapon based on features (removable magazine, folding stock, pistol grip).
distainv
Well CA it likely cant even be sold cause its not on their stupid fucky list. But and probably in NY and Mass it would have issues.
AutonomousPrime
There is no 'list' for rifles or shotguns, only handguns. But it's definitely all sorts of illegal here. If it fires shells, it's an SG.
distainv
Yea i feel sorry for you. I wont even buy things from CA. I can't wait till they run out of money and have to break up.
CountDefactimus
Well congratulations, you now have a bad gun. It probably gave some bad lawmakers extra vindication for having their pointless jobs.
youknowyouwanttoseeit
One question. Where can I get one?
gofuckyourselves
Internet. Google dt-12 for sale.
youknowyouwanttoseeit
Thank you. Wasn't sure of the name.
nimrodd000
This is very clearly an assault rifle. It probably fires like 30 clips, too.
Sporly
http://imgur.com/B9XrYYh
afbujinkan
BATF: Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms. SBS: Short Barreled Shotgun (<18"). AOW: Any Other Weapon.
Sporly
Cheers. I thought BATF was to do with Black aces tactical firearms which is where the first confusion started
distainv
This gun makes me smile. You know there is a guy making 100k a year who's job for the last year has been to find a way to make this illegal.
mexicanstig
And that guy is just thinking "all i have to do is say, its illegal for circumventing existing laws"
Drewscifer
Probably around 150k a year. The pay for a senior executive service in title 5 agencies is standardized though it won't go far in DC
ImSynnical
probably just make another classification for this firearm rofl call it a "incest shotgun lovechild of a pistol"
NotAPervert
Good thing we get to elect who has that income and gets to decide our rights, right? Oh wait...
override367
Yes you do. Agencies can only interpret existing laws and you can challenge them in court
NotAPervert
Not in real life. Look at Sig's muzzle brake. They ruled it a suppressor despite not being one only because it has the potential.
blimpmode
In reality, bureaucrats are able to enact instantly, a court challenge takes years and millions of dollars. Case in point, MA state.
gofuckyourselves
This and bumpski stocks.
distainv
Don't forget the sig brace!
gofuckyourselves
Tannerite
distainv
And All ak and ar 15 pistols.
gofuckyourselves
Anything fun. Even legal nfa items aren't 100% safe. They could take it all away with one pen stroke if they wanted to badly enough.
RadSalty
It's obviously an AR-15
0xFFF1
It looks like a baby pigeon.
gofuckyourselves
Idk why but I got a good chuckle out of this comment.
0xFFF1
Look up Don't Hug Me I'm Scared. It's not strictly related.
nextgenpants
Someone's dog is gonna get shot over this one http://imgur.com/JPkLWHw.jpg
flarflarf
trollin the BATF is a time-honored tradition
OnlyMyHonestOpinion
But it has a stock... it's right there.
afbujinkan
Nope, that's the Sig arm brace. Basically a velcro secured pincer brace that wraps around the fore arm.
OnlyMyHonestOpinion
Lol, which are notoriously used to circumvent gun laws that prohibit the use of a traditional stock. I'm progun and all, but that's a stock.
chrishallett83
Looks like a real piece of shit, not really suitable for anything but wasting your money trying to make a stupid point.
PersonenschadenImGleisbett
there is a folding stock on this, isnt it?
marsgoose
That's an arm brace, you are not allowed to shoulder it
PersonenschadenImGleisbett
aahokay, thank you. thats that carnik con guy isnt it?
marsgoose
Yup, but one troubling thing is that the brace when put on ar is in a functional part, and the shotgun just has a plain tube
marsgoose
maybe that makes it a stock
Armistice023
I'm sure it's banned in CA...
AutonomousPrime
It's definitely banned here.
gofuckyourselves
Of course it is. Detachable mag, black and scary. Obviously a baby and puppy killing machine.
NerdN1
High capacity 12 gauge? Whether you think it should be legal or not, that would be a scary gun in close quarters.
acg129
not really, its not semi auto. Its the same as a mag fed bolt action
acg129
Its illegal due to the short length tho
allesumsonst
It´s banned in NY, MA and CA
distainv
Only because they won't pay the CA govt for the right to sell in their state.
IDownvoteYourShit
The list of what is NOT banned in CA is shorter right now.
judocop
Yes. This would be considered a "short-barreled shotgun," as defined in PC Section 17180.
AttentionDeficitOohShiny
AFAICT it would fall under https://www.atf.gov/file/58196/download 2.1.2 Weapon made from a shotgun." or "2.1.5 Any other weapon.
gofuckyourselves
That's what it should be, but due to how the laws are worded this can't be an aow or an sbs. Never was a shotgun, not a smooth bore pistol.
AttentionDeficitOohShiny
"Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck"... legal or not, seems incredibly impractical.
gofuckyourselves
They're utterly useless but I like the way that you can get around anything by studying how it's worded.
MediaMuerte
Probably does the job for home defense, but my KSG would outperform this.
gofuckyourselves
I've got some registered sbs's and you're right. They don't do anything better than an 18" barrel. They're good for gits and shiggles.
marsgoose
Legally it's not made from a shotgun, since it was never registered as a shotgun in the first place.
TooLazyToDoSomethingElse
If receiver is a shotgun, it's a shotgun.
NotAPervert
It can't be "made from a shotgun" because the receiver was specifically never part of a previous weapon. While patterned after, isn't.
TooLazyToDoSomethingElse
The receiver from a shotgun is different from that of a rifle.
NotAPervert
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearms-guide-identification-firearms-section-4 the point being no alteration occurred.
UrGrammasMonkey
I feel like if it doesn't fit it any category, shouldn't it be in the aow category? Isn't this exactly what that is for?
gofuckyourselves
Aow is a smooth bore shot pistol, this isn't a pistol. That's how they got around it.
UrGrammasMonkey
So the name lies? It's not actually any other weapon? Should be a shotgun then as it is a fun that fires shot...
gofuckyourselves
Pretty much. There's a bunch of guns that are just "firearms" but not aows.
UrGrammasMonkey
Weird.
Cyclopentadien
"any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive"
WiqidBritt
how about if it fires shotgun shells then it's a shotgun.
nextgenpants
Well yeah but that would require ATF regulations and classifications to make sense.
TheEcolitan
Good god what an abortion. It looks like orcs put it together.
IMadeThisOnlyForDestinyCodeBegging
Now that you mention it... It's honestly something that you wouldn't think twice about seeing in ork hands.
brcka
MOAR DAKKA!
HulkSm4sh
WAAAGH!
Stumpyz
WOT. ORKS NOT PUT THAT SHIT TOGETHA. NOT ENOUGH DAKKA TO BE SHINY ORK SHOOTA.
DrProfessorRocketSurgeon
Then shouldn't it be red?
TheEcolitan
It doesn't need to go faster!
DrProfessorRocketSurgeon
Lies, falsehoods, and prevarications! Everything needs to go faster.
PeaceWalker47
WAAAAAGGGGGHHHHH
Dekker3D
I agree that it looks like orcs put it together. I disagree that this would make it ugly.
cranialpleasure
Nah needs more dakka it does.
TheEcolitan
More dakka for everyone!
Chiluzza
U WOT IZ HAS NO SPIKY BITS OR DA DAKKA
Blerkherks
I kinda want it
HulkSm4sh
So ugly, so impractical, so dumb, so...so...shh...shhhhhut up and take my money.
fate47
Abortion or abomination?
AmiEvilYet
Yes
taedirk
In any event, it's heresy
OllyR
It's a gun, wot shoots shot. Its a shotgun.
thehungryguy
"fuckin northern monkeys" "i hate those southern fairies"
[deleted]
[deleted]
Sentay
Of a sort.
HulkSm4sh
What if it is shooting slugs or disks or salt or powder or rpg's like the AA12? :D
eggmuffin
*that
illegalacorn
A Taurus Judge isn't a shotgun though
Skawomplious
Is.
iAmNature
neither is a s&w governer
Haxbrygd
You're right, it's a paperweight with a serial number.
iAmNature
clearly you haven't seen or fired the rounds made specifically for home protection. It would be my 2nd choice.
Haxbrygd
The S&W Governor is no exception. It's just not a practical firearm in any capacity.
Haxbrygd
I'm a former FFL. I've shot 20mm rifles down to shitty Taurus guns. Judges are awful and inaccurate by nature.
iAmNature
You really don't need a shotgun shell to be that accurate in a hallway or a small room. I've fired it at the range plenty and i'd trust it.
nextgenpants
Zing!
SteamingScreamingCommie
Shots fired.
altrdgenetics
not with that paperweight anyways.
GoddamnitClown
Oh, you must be the brains of the operation, then.
ThatsOneCozyBoi
Lol
lLikeTurtles
...but it doesn't have a stock.
ConsumingDark
Shotguns don't need stocks...
gofuckyourselves
According to the atf they do.
ConsumingDark
https://www.classicfirearms.com/mossberg-persuader-8-shot-12g-pistol-grip
gofuckyourselves
Barrels over 18", means he pistol grips considered a stock.
Datdudez
Clearly its a shoot gun.
Panzer89
Sorta reminds me of the time the BATF declared a shoestring to be a machine-gun:
RollingCape
.
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAFUCKINGWHATAHAHAHAHAHAHA
SnippySnipes
This is a joke right
Panzer89
The BATF is a joke.
afbujinkan
Nope.
Cheomesh
It wasn't the string itself, it was the weapon that had been modified.
NotAPervert
"the auto sear is a machine gun as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(b)." Not "an assembled rifle is"
NotAPervert
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/atf-national-firearms-act-handbook-appendix-b/download
NotAPervert
Not according to the letter and precedent. For example the sear for an AR that allows automatic fire is the registered machine gun
NotAPervert
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearms-guide-identification-firearms-section-4
shadowcoaster
You are right but this is imgur where people are incredibly liberal, which i understand somethings are illegal or otherwise limited somehow,
shadowcoaster
but when it comes to firearms people here get touchy.
NotAPervert
He's not right, it is specifically the part that is registered as the machine gun, not the assembled gun. See my response comments to him.
youcantproveit
This is glorious. BAN ASSAULT STRINGS!
USRaider
That whole side grip thing was shot down in an opinion letter I read recently, so good luck with it
gofuckyourselves
Black aces is still selling them this way without an sbs/aow stamp. $1179 shipped to your dealer.
USRaider
That's all well and good until the atf comes back for them. Then where's your money? It's an unwise one who walks such a grey line
gofuckyourselves
I agree there. Look what happened to street sweepers.
Zigor22
BATF needs to leave us alone. right to bear arms shall not be infringed. simple.
EvenSpeedwagon
2 the second amendment says that a "Well regulated militia" has the right to bear arms.
wilwith1l
Scalia, writing for the majority, in Heller, indicated that its an individual "right" of "the people". Militias dont have individual rights.
EvenSpeedwagon
I mean. The constitution doesnt actually give us that right. Nor does the bill if rights. Not that guns arent nice to have.
Triatticus
I may be a simple gun owner and only own a cheap only good for taking-to-a- range mosin, but I think the same way
CrabWallet
Write the whole sentence, then explain how it's not fantastically ambiguous.
Skawomplious
"necessary to the security of a free state" and "shall not be infringed" are the unambiguous parts. (1)
CrabWallet
There's literally no explanation of the relationship intended between everything before the word "State," and everything after. It's 1
CrabWallet
an objectively ambiguous sentence. Hence, the centuries of argument. 2
Skawomplious
"well regulated militia" is irrelevant, because letting the gov't decide what's "well regulated" defeats the purpose. Does that help?
EvenSpeedwagon
So, we can ignore parts of the law because we disagree with them? Isnt that exactly why we hate Hillary?
Skawomplious
Not because we disagree with them. Letting the Fed gov't decide if that portion is relevant or what it means lets the Fed gov't (1)