IPegOnTheFirstDate
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Good guy Joss Whedon
Jul 14, 2015 8:51 PM
IPegOnTheFirstDate
276200
7876
314
LuckyICantSeeFarWithThisLeg
Because this is still being reposted.
Luprand
Joss Whedon has brutally killed more assertive female characters than most people ever write.
Lemesplain
In a hour long web sing-along thing, he made me fall in love with Felicia Day's character, root for her and NPH, then wrench out my heart.
FrostytheSnowcolt
And then the SJWs ate him alive.
OverlyCynicalImgurian
Doesn't Whedon just make the same female character over and over pretty much, though?
FearsomeFoursome
What kind of characters does he write?
SingleNiceFedoraWearingClassyGuycautiondonotfriendzone
Yeah...this was not the question, nor was this the answer. But please, continue with the circlejerk.
matrixcakes
I LOVE all the women in firefly, especially Inara <3
ThomasFoolarry
Oh man, he's wearing a Bell an Ross. Those are awesome watches.
nordlinger
+1 for you! Noticed the watch and instantly thought "Gotta have me one of those beauties, I wonder what it is?" Too bad I'm not rich :(
zooks
At this point,
regollyek
He writes the most generic female characters.
elfinglamour
Yeah they're the pretty stereotypical 'strong woman' Buffy was pretty great tho but he is deff overrated
AgamemnonsMemes
"How do you write strong female characters" - "I don't, i just write characters that happen to be female"
belatarr4lyfe
He's right, he doesn't.
MrPredator
"I write my women like I like my alcohol. They're so damn strong they'll knock me on my ass and make me forget my horrible life."
bluerazzgummy
Heaps of feminists hate him though (source: GF and twitter). I'm confused about the whole deal so often.
Henshaw
It's standard Internet Amplification. Enough people know Joss Whedon that there's a heap of people for most every combination of opinions.
actuallyMikeTyson
2/2 expectation to do it consistently
actuallyMikeTyson
It's because he doesn't always write good female characters and complained that writing good ones before creates the 1/3
sonofsharkfighter
Or as Jack Nicholson says: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0g9_wfkYjfo
Crowforge
Never meet your heroes.
Barkinsons
My first thought as well, great film
CatsandDnD
Darla!
VesselOfHate
Did anyone ever actually ask him that question?
SingleNiceFedoraWearingClassyGuycautiondonotfriendzone
No, but it makes circlejerking easier if we pretend someone did.
Felman
No. He was pretending to be a reporter and answered the question.
Felman
Link for those who need it: http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/josswhedonequalitynow.htm
LowCarbBatgirl
Wow, I have never seen this, thank you.
backtobackpanicattack
GIVE US BACK WASH YOU BASTARD!
Rogahar
IMO, if your character's gender can't be swapped and have no impact on the story, then you're doing something wrong.
OverlyCynicalImgurian
"After five years, Dave got pregnant...things got a little weird after that."
Rogahar
*excluding where key plot elements directly relate to a certain gender. :P
Texantioch
YOU CAN'T PICK AND CHOOSE THE RULES ROGAHAR!
GummyVenusDeMilo
Iron Man can have a big romantic storyline but if a female character does then it's sexist? I just don't get it anymore. signed, a feminist
GummyVenusDeMilo
We're all humans and humans are a fan of love & romance-even bad ass ones who fight bad guys. Boy/girl it doesn't matter. We all want love.
Revan73
Joss Whedon is a dick-less bitch.
sasukate
What kind of question is that though? What kind of answer were you expecting? Also, I love his face palm.
Cryfall
Sensitive Joss Whedon
mrvadge
If only there was an acronym for this.
oateyboat
RED LETTER MEDIA!
AnnmarieWiesneski44
Yeah, it was valid criticism for sure. And I ducking worship this guy's work.
ThatAssholeOverThere
I hate when people demand characters of certain gender or sexuality. Just fucking read the book and enjoy it
SurelyNotAWalrus
I think on a cultural level it is fine to demand more of this from our entertainment but attacking indidivial works on this is silly
Dawnstempest
Yeah, fuck that. Heroes are heroes regardless of gender and/ or sexuality. Be proud and enjoy them for what they represent and the ideals
Dawnstempest
not how they look and/ or who they want to fuck.
dasmoons
AngryArmour
"Because I get to tell YOU what to do"
FailToImpress
I don't really see a problem with that. Like why should their be no superheroes who are from a minority background?
barotrauma
(1) There are minority heroes, it just so happens that most popular american superheroes we have today were created ~50+ years ago and are
ThatAssholeOverThere
There can, but I don't see why people need to get all butthurt when there aren't. Just let writers write
FailToImpress
Well if you want something to happen, you need to make your voice heard, and to some it comes off as 'butthurt'.
barotrauma
(2) white because of it. blame "rebooting" the comicbooks every so often so they don't have to create new characters/series.
FailToImpress
I'm not too familiar with comic book lore, and rebooting characters, so do you mind explaining this theory.
coolbeanslooseit
Yeah, someone asked that at his SDCC panel. They litterally said "when are we getting a Mexican superhero?".
yesiamaphysicist
Sounds like they don't actually read comics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Latino_superheroes#Marvel_Comics
Dawnstempest
In about a week, give or take, considering that Marvel has announced publicly that they are going super Politically Correct.
aramil31
Oh boy, what are they doing now? Someone else turning into a plus-sized female-identifying (Western) ethnic minority?
Dawnstempest
Not that I know of, at least they didn't say that specifically. But they did say they are going to change a lot of characters
Dawnstempest
both gender and ethnicity and sexuality wise to be more politically correct.
aramil31
One could only wish they'd develop new ones who are unique rather than altering what already exists.
ilikeimplying
>implying most of his strong women aren't also all pretty and with generally frequent moments of bird-brainedness and boy-obsession
puerility
to be fair, he's not really implying anything. it's a witty but meaningless answer to the question; he said it because it sounds good.
puerility
wait, just saw your name. I'm a dumbass, move along.
ZedZaw
>implying that most of his strong men aren't also all sexy and with generally frequent moments of clumsyness and girl-obsession
ilikeimplying
>implying that was every implied. Most of his characters are kinda shitty losers IMO, but I love his work anyway :'(
bobbi21
and for the rest, not sure if crazy counts as bird brained (river), zoey, saffron, Joyce Summers. Teenagers of often dumb and horny...
ilikeimplying
>implying the writer of strong women happens to write shows full of horny dumb teenage girls instead
bobbi21
Uh.. buffy is about dumb horny teens though... That's kinda the premise...
SamMan
Try getting a show produced/financed with an "ugly" actress in it that is the hero & who doesn't have a make over half way through.
ilikeimplying
>implying your only options for strong women are stick thin or ugly, if Buffy looked like R Rousey, it'd be way less awkward to watch
LevelSevenLaserLotus
The queen from Snow White. She actually gets uglier halfway through. All she wanted was to be the fairest of them all, dammit!
SamMan
She wasn't the hero though. Everyone knows only evil/bad people are ugly. /sarcasm.
LevelSevenLaserLotus
Of course she was! Wait, it wasn't written as a tragedy? I always thought she was just a royal apple farmer and victim of circumstance.
LevelSevenLaserLotus
Also /sarcasm.
MantisTobagganMD
Are you saying Charlize Theron isn't a straight up South African goddess?
LevelSevenLaserLotus
Touche. Also this.
Reg06
And his male characters get caught up with chicks.
Felix0410
That's the point. He writes them as people. Everyone is flawed. If he wrote them as strong badasses with no emotions they'd be caricatures.
ilikeimplying
>implying they're not caricatures of gum-chewing boy crazy teenage girls, with randomly attributed powers
Greeneyeddevil
And he only counts them as strong if they go through something. Joyce Summers was 'just' a single mum for years.
bobbi21
To be fair pretty much everyone in hollywood is pretty. Hard to even find ugly actors. There's still Tara. And original Willow wasn't pretty
OverlyCynicalImgurian
That's because people don't want ugly actors in their movies unless you're playing Igor in Young Frankenstein or something.
ilikeimplying
>implying Willow wasn't the cutest fucking thing ever from the start, she was adorable straight away
bobbi21
I meant the original actress for willow. Riff Regan. Don't mean to be mean but not exactly cute.
TheLordLucifersBannedAccount02
Yes she was. His strongest female character was Zoe Washburne. I think that's his only strong female character.
PlutoIsSoAPlanet
You take that back! You take that back right now!
bobbi21
uh which part?
Lemesplain
He makes wonderful characters: both male and female, both strong and helpless ... so that we'll be heartbroken when he kills them.
Joshua877
This response is so hurt and bitter you can taste it
Sefinh
"Like ash in your mouth."
Lemesplain
How do reavers clean their harpoons?? They run them through the Wash. (Nathon Fillion told that joke, just FYI)
iamanapatosaurus
Wash's departure really left a hole in your heart, I felt.
bsmack44
I thought it left more of a home in his
isitrelevantyet
G.R.R. Martin, Joss Whedon, and Steven Moffat walk into a bar. Everyone you've ever loved is killed.
MantisTobagganMD
Bruh, Moffat doesn't deserve to be listed in their company.
UrsaUrsa
ayyyy
crookednixon
Wait, I can only think of one character that Moffat killed off (2 if you count a regenerating Doctor)
theman20
Why would we count a regenerating Doctor? Regeneration's not death; it's change.
brokencrockerypants
A lot of the prominent characters within an episode of Doctor Who are killed, though.
bobbi21
Besides Serenity, I feel all his deaths made sense or weren't exactly the main characters. Heartbreaking (I miss anya..) but expected.
Lemesplain
Serenity made sense. Killing Wash and Book instilled a sense of dread in the final battle. If they can die, ANYONE can die.
bobbi21
Them specifically didn't matter though. Someone was dying but he made it clear that it was Wash simply due to Alan Tudyk volunteering. 1
bobbi21
I think book was still planned since he needed that whole "believe in something" speech which was pretty essential. 2
p75369
Strong, here, doesn't mean they're all chanelling Rambo. It just means they fill a proper roll and are not just "the love interest"
Lemesplain
It can mean both. He writes women who kick ass, and women who need help ... both if which are well written, and fully developed.
p75369
Strong Character (Female), not Female Character (Strong)
SchmidtyC
I'm a leaf on the wind...
BastardOrphanSonOfAWhoreAndAScotsman
I love you and hate you for this comment.
herebekrakens
;,,,,,,,,,,,,(((((((((
testificatesn
I read this in his voice. His excited, happy voice...
TallWall
Dust in the wind, candle in the wind... there'll be a general wind theme.
Kaiolas
Too soon
kuhzoo
o.O? Will it ever stop being 'Too soon'?
Kaiolas
Never
graehall
He actually cares about his characters. He is not RR. He knows how important it is for us to invest in his stories and characters :P
Spanky93
Oh my sweet summer child
danielsting
When he INEVITABLY kills them.
coolbeanslooseit
Id say Joss is a lot better at writing women than he is men. He doesn't seem to hold men in much regard a lot of the time.
hencethequeef
I have to disagree. Xander went from the stereotypical comic relief to an incredibly strong, surprising, complex character.
Lemesplain
Yeah, his male characters are pretty forgettable. That's why no one is still grieving over the death of Wash ... you monster.
coolbeanslooseit
Where does "I'd say Joss is a lot better at writing women" turn into "Joss writes men terribly". Jesus :/
Lemesplain
(That was sarcasm, just FYI. I was hoping the "you monster" bit would give it away)
coolbeanslooseit
No I get it. I was more referring to the previous reply but pressed this one on accident. #justmobileappthings
BuckBoost
I think I'm growing old.I can't think of a single important female character he killed off.
Lemesplain
Penny. Joyce. Miss Calendar. Fred.
YeastLord
Uh... Fred? Cordy? Are you happy? Now I'm crying.
BuckBoost
Damn.I had suppressed Cordelia's death :( Now I'm crying too :'(
But Fred...(spoilers follow)
BuckBoost
...comes back to life in a later comic that's considered canon.
YeastLord
Fuuuuuck... As she's singing "You are my sunshine..." and Lorne's reaction... Ahh
apolloin
You do remember he wrote Buffy the Vampire slayer, right?
3rdhand
He kills off at least 3 in Buffy
AsYooouWiiish
That username though
xoverthirtyx
Roseanne gave him and JJ Abrams their first writing jobs on her show a no prior experience. She just bieved in them.
Gastroboi
I wish someone would bieve in me :(
IAlwaysPost140Characters
Also Mark Rosewater who runs Magic the Gathering
Lemesplain
Good to see that she had at least a 50% success rate in picking winners.
diphiminaids
I bieve in you.
xoverthirtyx
Lol stupid mobile app, I can't see what I'm typing.
RandyMarshThoughtThisWasAmerica
Well done.
xoverthirtyx
Came back to say how much I love this comment.
TalkRlyehianToMe
Twitter treated him so well, you know, Friendly Fire and all.
WiqidBritt
He quit twitter because he was exhausted from making Avengers 2.
srsfaceI8C
Twitter is an awful place. Source: Myself, because I love twitter and used to spend way too much goddamn time on it.
udontneedtoknowmyname
Twitter just seems like one big youtube comments section.
HostelRatintheBackWithaPint
I don't understand?
actuallyMikeTyson
He got professional backlash at the same time he got internet backlash, and people think it was all "feminists"
ImAnSJW
Yeah, it was valid criticism for sure. And I ducking worship this guy's work.
ImAnSJW
Dammit autocorrect
TalkRlyehianToMe
If you've seen Avengers 2, he was bullied and harassed by feminist extremists for having Black Widow captured in her backstory.
ZeeCatnip
Twitter can be a cesspool, people will get offended by anything
HostelRatintheBackWithaPint
The world is a cesspool.
fearandloathebananas
Some of the tweets he got https://storify.com/Astojap/wehdon-twitter-hate
HostelRatintheBackWithaPint
Thanks
HostelRatintheBackWithaPint
Why is he racist? And against trans people? Did I miss something? Dude is one of my heroes and inspired me so much.
Reg06
He's not. It's just that fuckers are gonna be fucky.
BasedStalin
Feminists weren't too happy about Avengers 2 so he left twitter because of all the hate he was getting.
HostelRatintheBackWithaPint
Dear god
BasedStalin
Yep. He was pimping his feminist status for a while then they turned which I think caught him off guard.
irna
Yep. He was basically bullied out of twitter. Such a shame.
Rifneno
If he hadn't been siding with those same lunatics previously. But as it is, it's just hilarious.
ImAnSJW
False. He was actually pretty frustrated people were pinning it on feminism or anybody on twitter. Google it.
anifanatic
Um, no in an interview he said he left becsuse it was distracting. Specifically called "horseshit" on trying to pin it on feminism.
fearandloathebananas
He continued by saying: "“Believe me, I have been attacked by militant feminists since I got on Twitter. That’s something I’m used to."
anifanatic
Yeah, he's never buckled to them. I don't understand your point. Yes, militant feminists were harassing him but that's not why he left.
SquirtleSquad420
There was an outcry about how the black widow was portrayed in Avengers 2. People were calling him misogynist/sexist.
HostelRatintheBackWithaPint
The hell? He's a feminist all the way. Such bullshit
ImAnSJW
This may be so, but TBW was largely used as a plot point rather than a character in the latest film. It's not invalid criticism.
notsocrazy24
what exactly was the problem with her?
SquirtleSquad420
That she was captured briefly and the sterilization thing got blown out of proportion.
notsocrazy24
Maybe I just need to watch that movie again because I really don't remember this part...
babieseverywhere
Joss Whedon writes some great characters (of either gender), but he doesn't have a monopoly on it like some of his fans seem to think
randomyOCE
True. He's more impressive at writing group dynamics (Firefly, The Avengers) so it bugs me people fixate on his ability to write females.
babieseverywhere
I think that's a perfect way of putting it. All of his best shows have great ensembles.
jaminjimmyjames
It's because he's so good with dialogue, and that lends to exposition.
ravnicrasol
I like to believe the ability to write/create good characters (of either gender) is a skill you develop and not some sort of limited offer.
khuan
He was one of the few for a while, he's gotten worse with time while there are more and more people doing a better job then he ever did.
Dawnstempest
Name one.
khuan
Russel T. Davies
khuan
And he made this exchange up. No one ever asked him this question, for the record.
SukhoiSuperjet
He is overrated.
SeriouslyILoveCake
I told my husband someone called Joss Whedon overrated on Imgur. He laughed and said, "Oh honey!"
Lemesplain
"Someone on the internet said a mean thing!?!" ... "Oh my sweet summer child"
yourbassist
I tend to agree but then I remind myself to check his IMDB page and it's pretty solid. But, I liked AoU better than the 1st Avengers.
CoconutCyclone
He wrote and directed both. Why would liking one over the other be relevant?
yourbassist
The general consensus around the two. I found the last hour of the first movie to be overdone. Felt like I was watching Transformers.
srsfaceI8C
I disagree. I think he's rated right where he should be. Talented writer. Made some quality shows and movies in his time.
Theman098
Overrated does not mean bad. It means people give him more credit than he is due. He`s a damn good writer, but he`s not THE good writer.
iamthatcat
I did not realize being THE good writer was a thing.
Theman098
Some people try to act like there is only one good writer, thus THE writer.
crann
Yup, he's totally rated, not over, not under. Although he does have some really loud fanboys. Does that affect the over rated part?
oreogolem
I think that effected the overrated part.
crann
Yeah, I figured, but stream of consciousness doesn't lend itself to the backspace
srsfaceI8C
Apparently so. You could say the same thing about every loud fan of anyone, so I don't blame Whedon for it.
StructureLlama
b-b-b-but...muh firefly
LadyHarmalade
Not sure I agree with all of it but it's a different take on him http://www.themarysue.com/reconsidering-the-feminism-of-joss-whedon/
TheThiefLord
He writes characters who are more like real people, they have high and low points. This just didn't make strong points for me.
notsocrazy24
Sweet jesus I think I lost some IQ points reading this. Do people not know that you can't just make up bullshit interpretations of 1/2
notsocrazy24
stuff? Do we not do real, actual film/television critique anymore? 2/2
TalkRlyehianToMe
The Mary Sue isn't the best source of info.
YeastLord
I get what they're going for, but I think there's a solid argument for saying his male characters are equally dependent on a female support.
srsfaceI8C
The issue with feminism is most people who consider themselves one have wildly different meanings on what it actually is.
TheLordLucifersBannedAccount02
And then they use the no true scotsman argument on all the others.
srsfaceI8C
Right. I've personally had to switch from saying I'm a feminist to saying I'm "egalitarian" which is what most people think they are.
TheLordLucifersBannedAccount02
Aye
TheLordLucifersBannedAccount02
Whereas I'm an egalitarian who's a MRA that supports feminists.
srsfaceI8C
we must go deeper
WhyAmINotASaiyan
I love what George R R Martin said : "I write women so well because I think of women as people."
DeadpanLaugh
I hate that quote. It implies that other writers don't think of women as people.
Ribsordierude
So sick of this quote. Re-quote. Let it die
Antermosiph
I honestly don't find he writes them well, but that's just me.
PitbullsPublicist
*gasps*
VioletCrow
"I just killed 3 of your favorite characters." -George R R Martin.
huanthewolfhound
See, I think of women as people too, but I know I can't write a good female character, so I'm gonna avoid focusing on them.
rosiethereaver
Umm, you write good female characters the same way you write good male characters: by making them complex and interesting.
doctorpenguinphd
I'm willing to bet the problem is that you're overthinking it.
huanthewolfhound
Probably, b/c I notoriously overthink things in my life. Let's just say my fantasy story had a sister until I shipped her to the military.
huanthewolfhound
...and I made that character decision because I couldn't figure out how to avoid the damsel in distress trope, OR the Susan/Lucy pigeonhole.
SgtEziosRequiem
"Male, female, they'll all dir in the end anyway."
Thezombieteabagger
Well, he's not wrong.
wilson1helpme
liek so dir
Zeigg
Dir dir dir dir dir dir dir dir dir dir dir dir dir dic dir dir bir dir dir butt dir dir dir dir dir dir dir dir
PitbullsPublicist
but we will make a lot of noise if a woman dirs the same way as a man, because that is sexist and degrading, also men's rape is funny.
Confrontation
All men must dir
OshikuruDemonSamurai
I have not dir'd since my DOS days.
RevengeByAnyOtherNameIsNotAsSweet
now it's all ls -ltr and stuff.
irrelevanceisgolden
Make dir!
TheGayAgenda
I'm baffled by the idea that someone things he writes women well.
Drpurrpurrpurr
Agreed, his female characters are shite.
unresponsivenipples
There was one Brienne scene written so well my feminist friends won't shut up about it.
TheGayAgenda
Was it the one where she walks through the woods and does nothing all of book 4?
unresponsivenipples
Something like she was injured & being approached by someone from behind and knowing "today may be the day I finally get raped" or something
TheGayAgenda
Oh yeah, a man saved her.
heatherkb85
THANK YOU.
backtobackpanicattack
*gasp* It's that damned gay agenda everyone is gasping at!
TheGayAgenda
I'm just saying, he killed renly and renly was hot AF. That asshole.
backtobackpanicattack
XD
srsfaceI8C
He writes them as well as he writes men, which is to say everyone is awful and kind of an asshole all the time.
TheGayAgenda
Yes! Awful in that they're all poorly written "gritty" versions of fantasy tropes.
AnyUsernameWillDoForMe
I'd upvote this, but its a lost cause. You don't notice it at first, but by the final books its like reading the same page again and again.
Armored0Titan0
I mean, he writes psycho women pretty well.
rebe2018
THE SHOW DOES NOT ACCURATELY REPRESENT THE FEMALE CHARACTERS READ THE BOOKS! sorry for yelling I'm very pasaionate
Drpurrpurrpurr
I'VE READ THE BOOKS AND THINKS HIS FEMALE CHARACTERS ARE SHITE, I DON'T EVEN WATCH THAT CRAPPY SHOW!
timteamtebow
I'm not reading those third party books that stole all their ideas from his TV series.
applesapplesapples
He wrote other things! Lots of things!
TheGayAgenda
I have read all of the books. Most female characters are better in the show.
DavosSeaworthTheOnionKnight
They cut a lot of the female charecters from the show...Arianne is gone, and Asha was a bit part basically, Lady Mormont is gone 1/2
DavosSeaworthTheOnionKnight
Sorry for the shitty numbering (5)
TheGayAgenda
That's ok. I struck a nerve with so many people on here because I think the GoT books are poorly written. Thanks for insightfulness.
DavosSeaworthTheOnionKnight
Lday Stoneheart gone...they made Arya less badass. 2/2
TheGayAgenda
They cut filler characters, except for Stonheart, who will show up at some point. Arya's still got half her plot to go.
DavosSeaworthTheOnionKnight
OH..and the female centric block in Dorne they just butchered..the sand snakes sucked in the show, and instead of trying to crown 2/3
TheGayAgenda
It was a terribly written filler plot in the books, though. They basically realized this and cut it down to nothing. 1/2
TheGayAgenda
They served no purpose other than to reveal that the brother was on his way to Dany, and his plot served no purpose at all. Filler. 2/2
DavosSeaworthTheOnionKnight
Myrcella Queen they tried to kill her for no good reason (4)
TheGayAgenda
This made roughly equal sense to me. Better in the books, I agree, but by killing her they forced a war that they clearly wanted.
UnknownPenguins
George Rail Road Martin is his full name
Chillimaniac
I see that for every R R I come across. Thanks Red Dead Redemption
ILoveCreamPies
I thought it was George Rest Room Martin, but my husband said it's George Round Rock Martin
Rip901
You can't stop the murder train.
YeahLinguisticsBitch
George Ronald-Reuen Martin
YeahLinguisticsBitch
Fuck. Reuel*.
IWannaSeeHowItEnds
George Red Rum Martin
MrBassoonBro
George Rick Roll Martin
SausagePolka
George Racaroni Rorc Martin